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I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad

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Re: I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad

#521

Post by Melatonic »

zokier wrote: post #405

Personally I think beyond T450 generation, i.e. over 10 years old systems, you are starting to make pretty severe compromises. T440 generation had really bad Trackpoint setup, and older hardware starts to lose features. Random stuff that T450 has that T400 doesn't * USB3 * Up to 32 GB of RAM (vs max 8 GB for T400) * M.2 slot (for SSD), 6 Gb/s SATA (vs 1.5 Gb/s on T400) * x86-64-v3 (AVX2 etc) and OpenGL 4.6 * Dual-ban…

T420 has most of that (or can be upgraded to a lot of that) while still retaining the classic keyboard and tank like build.

Re: I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad

#522

Post by Melatonic »

znpy wrote: post #151
CursedSilicon wrote: post #6

I wish that Framework could attain the same lofty levels of "second hand market success" that ThinkPads enjoy. A lot of the "Thinkpad fans" I've talked to genuinely want them, or respect them for similar reasons they enjoy the ThinkPad legacy. ThinkPads are durable but every day they get older, slower and more difficult to source parts for as collectors entrench themselves and the requirements of operating systems (a…

> 51nb's "FrankenPads" especially breathe incredible new life into old IBM and Lenovo stock. That's biased though. As soon as a 51nb motherboard dies or has any hardware failure you're back to 2008-era level of performance.

Any idea how reliable those motherboards are ?

Re: I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad

#524

Post by cassepipe »

Muvasa wrote: post #340
janitor77swe wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes that's exactly what I'm suggesting. The two things I never had to replace since I got my first laptop in the late 90s, not do I know anyone who had to replace those.

Literally the battery is the only thing I had to replace on every laptop I've had.

Well I have had to replace hinges, upgrade RAM, replace the battery, change HDD to SSD, replace a broken keyboard, an entire enclosure and finally a dying motherboard after 11 years of use. The laptop is still working but it could have really used a screen upgrade.

Maybe standard screen definition is now good enough, RAM big enough, SSD more durable, shell more durable (although I have to say that's a disappointment with the fw) and hinges longer lasting, and maybe Framework is fighting the last war but that's the reason I went for one anyways.

This is a long run bet and if it doesn't pan out to be an amazing deal, it will still a better experience than the previous one.

It costed more than my previous laptop but no more or less what I have had to pay to maintain the previous one. If it had been a framework, it would still be my workhorse.

Future will tell

Re: I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad

#525

Post by 0xbadcafebee »

ivraatiems wrote: post #103
trompetenaccoun wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The older they are, the better they are Everyone agrees the build quality used to be better (my grandpa already said this about appliances from his youth). But one thing I almost never see discussed is the power consumption of these old devices. Older CPUs often double as room heaters. Modern ones, especially the Apple M-series, have become a lot more efficient. So while I agree that modern laptops suck in many ways…

It just isn't really a measurable impact against an overall picture. At maximum, a T580 can draw 44 watts. 8 hours per day, 365 days a year, at 50 cents a kWh (quite expensive for the US), that's $65 a year. That's a several-year-old computer already. The W520 can draw a much higher (but still low relative to a desktop) 150 watts. The cost per year to run it would then be around $220/year - but again, that's assuming…

For me power draw is about battery life. If you occasionally need to work without a power plug, or carrying your laptop from meeting to meeting all over the office, you really appreciate when the power lasts all day. My T14s battery draw of ~6.5W on the 57Wh battery will last me ~8 hours, good enough for a day unplugged at the office. (I'd love a bigger battery, but it is what it is...)

Re: I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad

#526

Post by makeitdouble »

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #433
makeitdouble wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's not a fatality. For context, that's what I'm talking about with the kind of patterns when it happens: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254769961?sortBy=rank > packing it in tightly with books Which is basically equivalent to "putting it in a backpack" to me. I brought my last one in a lot of places, putting it with an iPad in the laptop compartment, the iPad was fine, the MacBook screen wasn't. For comp…

It’s worth fixing for sure, but between that and PCB flexing, to me the latter is by far the worse of the two. A lot of users will never encounter the first, but in a laptop with a flexy chassis practically everyone will end up flexing their mainboard unless the laptop is permanently desk-bound.

I'd put the spotlight on the repair prices to fix a MacBook screen: a full replacement will cost more that half the machine price, and basically the same as a motherboard replacement for low-middle range models.

It's akin to asking if you prefer to lose your right or left arm.

Apple would get out of that issue altogether if they gave up on the ultrathin screen. Again, the iPad doesn't have this issue for instance.

Re: I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad

#527

Post by brewtide »

urda wrote: post #421
sitkack wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not. If we continue to sit on our hands talk down about "most people" aren't interested in XYZ, we are the problem. Armchair dipshits like to slag on Louis Rossmann, but did lead repair sessions where he would teach people how to do hot air pcb rework. Dude walks the talk and empowers people. You are missing my point.

You’re venting, not arguing. Teaching three people doesn’t scale, and anecdotes aren’t data. No one’s dismissing Rossmann or the value of empowerment. The problem is acting like isolated efforts equal systemic change. If this were as easy as you claim, the landscape would reflect that. So yes, you’re missing the point. Passion is fine, but without policy, infrastructure, and incentives, it goes nowhere.

How do you think policy of any sort gets it's origin?

Same token, sounds like you're arguing, not doing.

Re: I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad

#528

Post by dahauns »

op00to wrote: post #492
dahauns wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The difference is Apple is usually able to be held to task to fix issues, while almost any other vendor did not care to stand behind their product, including Lenovo. Sorry, but this is a joke. "any other vendor did not care to stand behind their product"? Give me a break . Apple has been time and again the champion of denying issues with their products until lawsuits forced their hand, often settling without admitti…

Every hardware vendor has problems. Suggesting that Apple is uniquely bad while others “stand behind their products” doesn’t hold up. The difference is that Apple, after enough pressure, actually fixes things. They create repair programs, offer recalls, and have the infrastructure to make things right. Most vendors don’t. Let’s look at the examples you listed. Butterfly keyboard Yes, a bad design. But Apple launched…

>Every hardware vendor has problems.

Yeah, and I explicitly stated that this isn't what I was criticizing.

>The difference is that Apple, after enough pressure, actually fixes things. They create repair programs, offer recalls, and have the infrastructure to make things right. Most vendors don’t.

Which simply is bullshit.

I don't know why you feel the need for a play-by-play - I know, I was affected by several of them. And every single one of them was Apple reacting only after prolonged active denial and deflection culminating in lawsuits. There's nothing to defend here. That's shitty service.

Kinda sad that that you feel the need to bring random other issues into the mix (Coil Whine, really? LOL, remember the MBP "Moo"?) coupled with outright lies (of course HP issued recall programs - for both the NVidia GPUs and the batteries).

>The service experience isn’t perfect, but it exists. With most other vendors, you’re stuck mailing your device to a third-party contractor who might show up late and leave you worse off.

No, with serious vendors, you're not. It seems you've never experienced real business on-site service. (And yes, it was still cheaper than AppleCare.) Compare that to wondering with every visit at the service center whether your problem will even be acknowledged as such or you're gonna be gaslit. (And I'm speaking from experience.)

> But pretending they’re worse than companies who ghost their customers when things go wrong doesn’t line up with reality.

Neither does pretending that's all that exists (or even being close to the norm with high-end gear).

Re: I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad

#529

Post by bikenaga »

Melatonic wrote: post #504
AlecSchueler wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The latest browser itself runs fine as well as most old school websites like Hacker News, it's only the "web apps" that run slowly.

Can't throw more than 4gb in there ? Even 8 makes a big difference.

Lenovo only officially supported 4 GB, but you're right - the MB supports 8 GB, and I can confirm it works: that's what I have in mine. That and an SSD make a huge difference.

Re: I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad

#530

Post by op00to »

dahauns wrote: post #528
op00to wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every hardware vendor has problems. Suggesting that Apple is uniquely bad while others “stand behind their products” doesn’t hold up. The difference is that Apple, after enough pressure, actually fixes things. They create repair programs, offer recalls, and have the infrastructure to make things right. Most vendors don’t. Let’s look at the examples you listed. Butterfly keyboard Yes, a bad design. But Apple launched…

>Every hardware vendor has problems. Yeah, and I explicitly stated that this isn't what I was criticizing. >The difference is that Apple, after enough pressure, actually fixes things. They create repair programs, offer recalls, and have the infrastructure to make things right. Most vendors don’t. Which simply is bullshit. I don't know why you feel the need for a play-by-play - I know, I was affected by several of the…

You’re leaning hard on a No True Scotsman argument here. “With serious vendors, you’re not” is doing a lot of hand-waving to ignore how inconsistent support actually is across the industry. Just because you had a good on-site experience doesn’t mean it’s universally better.

In my case, I had a ThinkPad X1 Carbon with a new, whiz-bang 4k screen that needed warranty service due to a faulty panel. Lenovo sent out a Unisys contractor who botched the repair—cracked the screen bezel, and somehow left the machine unable to boot. Lenovo sent the same guy back, and each visit made things worse. This happened multiple times, and the machine had to be fully replaced more than once because the repairs kept introducing new problems. This same tech also dropped a Lenovo server during a fan swap at a different site. So yeah, I’ve experienced “real” onsite business service, and it was an absolute mess more often than not.

Every vendor has issues. That’s not the point. The difference is that Apple actually rolls out repair programs and has the infrastructure to fix things in a relatively consistent way. You can take a broken machine to a store, talk to someone who can usually solve your problem, and almost always walk out with a solution. Pretending other vendors are more accountable just doesn’t match reality. They’re not immune to problems. They’re just a lot better at quietly ignoring them.

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