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Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

theregister.com

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Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#521
post #117

> "In the light of the conflict now spreading to Denmark as well as Tesla's recent very categorical refusal to enter a labour union agreement in any country, we have come to the conclusion that we as investors at present hardly can influence the company," the pension fund said in an emailed statement. ... That is why we're now putting Tesla on our exclusion list, ..." PensionDanmark, one of Denmark's largest pension…

I wonder if Norway will pull out of Tesla as well. The Norwegian Pension Fund currently owns 0.87%. Side-note, all its equities are publicly available: https://www.nbim.no/no/oljefondet/investeringene/#/

One of Norway’s unions are demanding this: https://www.dn.no/arbeidsliv/lo-lederen-mener-oljefondet-bor...

That either they convince Tesla to sign an agreement or they sell it all.

Norwegian politicians are also acting and eg. requesting discussions with Tesla in Norway to discuss the Nordic model with them.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived and worked in the UK, the Bay Area, and Stockholm. Sweden does not pay as well but the employee/union perks & lifestyle is night and day compared to the other two. I definitely miss Bay Area salaries but I'm getting more holiday, I get paid extra for going on holiday, I get a years paternity leave & IVF bonuses, I get free healthcare (and most employers offer free private healthcare), I get a company car f…

Yet everything you use is made elsewhere. Nordic model is such a great success.

Unlike the wildly successful US model, where everything is made elsewhere and the majority of the population is one major illness away from bankruptcy. Sorry junior, no tertiary education for you.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A strike is between a company and its workers, or maybe an industry and its workers. Postal employees, the fire department, transit employees, they don't work for Tesla.

_Sympathy strikes_ only make sense when directed towards the target of the original strike. If all sympathy strikes were to be total walkouts then it would result in a general strike and that doesn’t target any specific party and thus doesn’t put pressure on them

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Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because the voters wouldn't accept that. So in other words the unions don't own the government so much as they own the voters (or is it the other way around)? I'd call a decision that voters agree on democracy. > The unions "own" the government in the extent that they where tightly connected to the Socialist Democratic party that ruled Sweden for decades and are responsible for much of today's legislation. If you w…

> So in other words the unions don't own the government so much as they own the voters (or is it the other way around)? Yes, that's a good way to put it. Although memberships are rapidly decreasing in later years. The reasons for that can be saved for another discussion. > Another explanation could be that both sides of the political spectrum agrees and thinks that the power re: labor decisions such as this _should_…

> There really isn't any "both sides" of the political spectrum in Nordic countries when it comes to labour. The way the "right wing" parties can get elected at all is to say "We promise we're not going to do things differently than the left wing, but we'll give you a $100 more per year in tax deductions".

That's exactly my point. I think we're in general agreement about the state of things, but perhaps not in the reasons behind it. I see a rational consensus and belief in a system. I don't believe that these parties pretend something simply to gain votes, and then, after gaining power, do nothing to further this alleged political agenda.

> It is still the case in Finland, Norway and Denmark. These countries have a government church, that performs government functions, and levies taxes to the church from your salary. You still have to fill in a form if you want to exit the government church.

The church tax still exists in Sweden, and is opt-out in a similar way as you describe for the other Nordic countries. The tax is used for things like church weddings, burial costs, etc. I agree that this is a little strange, but the fact of the matter is that this system (at least in Sweden) doesn't apply only to the Church of Sweden. If you are a member of another religious communities, the fee can instead go to this entity. (In Swedish: https://www.skatteverket.se/privat/skatter/arbeteochinkomst/...)

> The year 2000 is not so far away, compared to when other nations separated church and state.

Be that as it may, the time span wasn't really part of the initial discussion. And people living day-to-day up here knows that the church has little to no say in anything in society. It has been like that for a long time. I think if anything people coming from elsewhere might be surprised how secular Swedish people/Scandinavians are. I don't think anyone that moved here (or even grows up here) would ever think about the fact that there was a "state church" not even 25 years ago.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite the precedent to set. Does this mean that any company operating in Denmark, that happens to be in a work dispute may have their mail stopped?

> Does this mean that any company operating in Denmark, that happens to be in a work dispute may have their mail stopped? The special case in Sweden is the law that requires Postnord deliver license plates. That doesn't exist elsewhere. Instead, it's a broader rebuke of the company as a whole. So yes, if you manage to needlessly piss off Scandinavia, you will have difficulty doing business there. The same can be said…

You can't properly run an economy on "pissing off" whims like that.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on these events, Sweden absolutely will lose out on billions of FDI. Actions have consequences.

This system has been in place for almost 100 years. Literally all other multinational companies shrug and negotiate an agreement with the unions, they know that Swedes are pretty cheap labor all told and that strikes are exceedingly rare here. The only reason Tesla is having problems is because Elon Musk is on an ideological crusade, there is no way this is economically rational.

Or, like no wise company would do, possibly explicitly codified such anti-union practice in the US holding company's charter.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#527
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is this entity that compels government employees to work? Typically the entity that compels employees to to their job (or be fired) is their employer. That is, in fact, the defining relationship between employees and employers.

The employer here is the government. That's why they are _government employees_. Last I checked, Sweden wasn't under a dictatorship. So again, if the citizenry largely support the strike, what is this shadow entity that is requiring them work?

No, the employer here is not the government. Please stop repeating this.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, your classification truly does not matter in the slightest. This is legal in the Nordics. You know how you make it illegal? By signing the CBA, which if you're already providing better terms, doesn't change anything.

Almost all of the comments on this forum, or any online forum do not matter in the slightest. But perhaps we can use forums to discuss ideas.

Discussing ideas and making up hypotheticals are two distinct activities.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#529
post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government employees do not work for the nebulous collective will of the population. They work for the government, which is a structured entity.

This distinction is meaningless. The motivations of the "structured entity" is defined by the nebulous collective will of the population. If the elected members of the "structured entity" feel as though the best course of action is for those employees not work, then they don't have to work. I don't know why the needs to Tesla should have higher weight than those of electorate. If PostNord was a private, shareholder o…

> This distinction is meaningless.

Only if you subscribe to the most naive grade-school model of democracy. A government isn't actually the will of the people made manifest; it's an organization made up of people, processes, and constraints. Just like a corporation isn't actually the will of the shareholders made manifest.

> The motivations of the "structured entity" is defined by the nebulous collective will of the population.

Once again, this is an absurdly naive view of how governments function. There is a voting mechanism in place which usually does a sort of OK job of keeping the government's behavior in line with the population's preferences, but this breaks down all the time and even in equilibrium doesn't work very well.

I suggest reading Bueno de Mesquita's _The Logic of Political Survival_ if you're interested in developing a realistic model for how government behavior emerges.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, there's no balancing downside to doing it this way. With the dockworkers example there is a massive downside: you mess up all industries doing any export or import. You really need a large buy-in before doing something that can mess up all unrelated industries, and thus potentially employment. In a small country no union operates in a vacuum, you'd quickly lose all goodwill. Edit: I think I answered off your…

To be clear: they are playing by the book. This is a power play to get them to set up a locally-owned subsidiary that runs things. It happens in various places. In China it's even more strongly enforced.

Well, while it's completely legal, it's not entirely by the book. It starts to get a bit of a gray area when you reach a certain size.

The unions, including the employer unions (NB!), have during the past century kept the country's lawmakers mostly out of regulating workforce agreements, including things like minimum pay, workplace insurance, and large parts of the pension system. These things are regulated by sector, and the regulations are re-bargained on a set schedule by these parties alone.

You can't stay out of these agreements for too long once you reach a certain size. The unions are trusted to handle this by their own. That is mostly done by sweetening the deal until it is accepted, usually by signing away the fundamental right to strike. It is not obvious if such fundamental rights really are bound to contract, especially not with the European Court, but it has resulted in a society where strikes are almost unheard of. Calling a strike without the backing of a union is pretty ineffective anyway, and the unions have their self interest in strong companies that can compete internationally and provide new jobs for the workforce.

The only times strikes are called are when some company will not present a counterparty to a contract negotiation, which is what this situation is. That happens once every decade and when it happens the unions all move in unison with several decades of money saved up, to show their might in order to make the affair as swift as possible. It's something that is often rehearsed often and seldom practiced.

Solidarity strikes are expected as a show of force. Things will escalate from there. While the part about an offer you can't refuse clearly has some similarities with mafia operations, the boundaries are clearly defined by law. There are lawyers specializing in this their entire careers.

Comparing this with the Chinese system misses the point by a mile.

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