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Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

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Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#521

Post by wpietri »

TheDudeMan wrote: post #512
wpietri wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's wild to me that you write "As I get older, I see this sentiment as very naive." And then go on to say some breathtakingly naive things. A lot of ocean activity is thoroughly regulated. For example: https://www.imo.org/en/About/Conventions/Pages/International... Moreover, It's not like they're getting paid in sand dollars or doubloons from the bottom of the sea. The passengers are signing contracts and paying lar…

So you're saying there is an agency/organization that would review and approve such endeavors? What is it, in this case?

I did not in fact say that. I'm addressing the broader false claim that the ocean is some sort of essentially unregulateable space. Indeed, I think the final paragraph makes clear that I think it's possible that no agency currently has unambiguous authority, but that won't stop people from creating one if enough people die like this.

I also suspect that people with broad authority may investigate this and consider/recommend prosecutions if appropriate. E.g., the Washington State Attorney General, the US Coast Guard, and the Canadian Coast Guard.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#523

Post by peterashford »

brutusborn wrote: post #404
reaperman wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a difference between Jacques Cousteau building a janky submarine rig for himself vs. Creating a business model of selling tickets to random strangers on that janky submarine.

There is definitely a difference, but it doesn’t really matter philosophically speaking. If people want to take huge risks, then so be it. Whether they build the sub themselves or pay and give that responsibility to a proxy, it is still up to them to make their own risk assessment.

I totally think it matters, philosophically. Clearly there's a moral difference between risking your own life and profiting off risking other people's lives.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#524

Post by elzbardico »

javajosh wrote: post #356
proggy wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is simply unbelievable that the company was even able to get to the point of diving to such depths with humans aboard. If they had encountered a program-destroying but non-catastrophic failure earlier on, it is possible we wouldn't be looking at one of the many horrific outcomes that this incident will likely resolve to. Looking at the accounts reported to date, the OceanGate engineering culture was basically non-…

>It is simply unbelievable that the company was even able to get to the point of diving to such depths with humans aboard. As I get older, I see this sentiment as very naive. The tacit assumption seems to be that there is an agency, a government, an organization, that would review and approve such endeavors. But that's just not how the world works. You can't stop people from going to sea, or sending contraptions to t…

I don't even think at those levels the government should bother. It is not we are selling a car for thousands of people that we know it occasionally leaks fuel in the engine bay.

People who pay for that kind of trip know the dangers and have money enough to do their own due diligence.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#525

Post by detaro »

Filligree wrote: post #467
flir wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not doubting you, but how is that possible? (A quick, unverified Google throws back "A standard Panamax containership has operational costs of about $9 million per year")

Those use cheap diesel. What sort of fuel do you use underwater?

electricity. which you probably got from cheap diesel in a generator on your carrier ship.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#526

Post by rpvnwnkl »

Solvency wrote: post #6
deadballcretin wrote: post #2

On one hand, 'if it ain't broke' etc. On the other, 'wait, what?'. The entire operation manages to somehow feel both incredibly sophisticated (it's not easy to get a sub to that depth) and simultaneously incredibly stupid.

There has to be a name for this kind of phenomenon. I am smart enough to know that I'm too dumb and ill-equipped to make a safe tourism business out of a homebrewed submarine. These people are smarter than me, but too stupid to know that they aren't smart enough to make a safe tourism business out of a homebrewed submarine.

That would be hubris

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#527

Post by wpietri »

brutusborn wrote: post #517
wpietri wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not different. "OceanGate intends to make underwater exploration cheaper and accessible to private citizens", says Wikipedia. And the people on it look, aside from their wealth, like members of the general public to me. They have no particular knowledge or skill, so I don't think they have an expert's ability to evaluate the risks.

How would you propose regulators determine if a person is skilled or knowledgeable enough to evaluate the risks?

I wouldn't personally propose that, because I'm not an expert. And I'm not sure that would ever be written into regulation; I think the ability to assess the danger may be more relevant for the civil suits that will presumably soon be bankrupting Oceangate.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#528

Post by peterashford »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #455
reaperman wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a difference between Jacques Cousteau building a janky submarine rig for himself vs. Creating a business model of selling tickets to random strangers on that janky submarine.

Is it really a good use of our tax money to have (usually equally incompetent) government bureaucrats chasing rich "eccentrics" around and policing how they hurt themselves? Department heads, and chiefs, and comptrollers and TPS reports and meetings to decide the meeting to define the committee to oversee efficiency standards, to go tell millionaires they can't ride in shonky submarines? Not using that on say schools…

I think the issue is less eccentrics hurting themselves as it is them profiting off endangering others

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#529

Post by anamexis »

brutusborn wrote: post #502
anamexis wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supporting fairly basic safety regulations for commercial endeavors does not equal strict obedience to authority.

I’d be interested to see your proposal for ‘basic’ safety regulations for subs. When you get into the weeds of this stuff it is actually very difficult and costly. We struggle to regulate giant industries, there is no chance we can regulate every crazy idea that someone wants to try out.

Submarines used for commercial use must be certified by DNV according to their safety standards.

It’s not that hard, and in any case complexity does not imply authoritarianism.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#530

Post by elzbardico »

prawn wrote: post #464
javajosh wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is simply unbelievable that the company was even able to get to the point of diving to such depths with humans aboard. As I get older, I see this sentiment as very naive. The tacit assumption seems to be that there is an agency, a government, an organization, that would review and approve such endeavors. But that's just not how the world works. You can't stop people from going to sea, or sending contraptions to t…

And I can see how patrons might look at their $250k fee (or whatever it was) and assume that price signals an absolutely premium and safe product, where really the bulk of it just signals that it's a difficult, risky, remote and rare expedition.

For this kind of thing? I would suspect 250k is too cheap to be good.
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