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Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

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Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#521

Post by jonnydubowsky »

3pt14159 wrote: post #472
twofornone wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't true. Underfunding is not the issue with underperforming schools in the US. If you want to improve outcomes in inner city schools you need to fix the broken local culture first, but it's sort of chicken and egg. http://thinkaboutnow.com/2016/03/debunking-the-underfunded-p...

https://www.vox.com/22266219/biden-eduation-school-funding-s... . Compare the homepages of the two. I know which one I trust more. http://thinkaboutnow.com/ https://www.vox.com/

Wow, thinkaboutnow is quite the website.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#522

Post by alistairSH »

giantg2 wrote: post #468
alistairSH wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the old policy was also race-blind in language, no question about that. But, it had decades of results that were extremely race-biased. Equality vs equity - I'd prefer we removed the sources of inequity. Do that and equality works itself out (in theory, anyways). The admissions fee removal seems like an easy win - paying for access to a public high school strikes me as extremely inequitable and I can't think of…

"I'd prefer we removed the sources of inequity. Do that and equality works itself out (in theory, anyways). ... I'm not sure about language and income policies, but at the same time, fixing those sources of inequity are massively complex and outside the scope of the school board." I agree that the main drivers of inequity in education are huge and mostly driven outside the schools. I think the schools need to act mos…

Why not start by removing the fees and standardized tests, then see how that works before implementing the more controversial subjective and class based changes? This sort of change would retain equality while reducing inequity.

Agree - a less contentious approach to solving the problem would have been better. I would like to see how removing the fee and removing the test altered the composition of incoming classes, without the extra poor-school, ESOL, etc policies.

“Emails and text messages between Board members and high-ranking [Fairfax school] officials leave no material dispute that, at least in part, the purpose of the Board’s admissions overhaul was to change the racial makeup to TJ to the detriment of Asian-Americans.”

Even that language is open to interpretation (lacking the text of the emails). Did somebody explicitly say "we need fewer Asians"? Or was it "the racial balance at TJ nowhere near represents the racial composition of the county"? At the end of the day, for whatever reason, Asians are disproportionately over-represented at TJ and that is a problem (if nothing else, it's a perception problem, but I suspect it's a lot more complicated than that).

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#523

Post by rmah »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #504
actuator wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what affirmative action will look like. If you want to see the context of such an action happening somewhere for long time, take the example of India. There it is much more explicit and written in the law. For some subjects, the criteria it takes for one cohort to get admission in the top college is the same one in which the other cohort will not even get admission in any college in the top 20. You can see th…

AA and other background-accounting factors have some place as an input into the system. You simply can't possibly claim that poor white rural kids in the south or black urban kids in poor neighborhoods (and all similar such situations) have the same chances at success of getting into harvard/yale/MIT as a rich white/asian kid from NYC who went to the best public/private schools (and SAT tutors) money could afford. Th…

"Rich white/asian kid from NYC"

I've seen this sort of characterization a lot here. I can understand it, but it doesn't really reflect reality. I don't know a lot about other areas, but in NYC, most asians are not "wealthy". Far from it, Asians in NYC have a substantially lower median income ($53k household, $25k per capita) than whites ($69k household, $50k per capita ).

More importantly, the asian kids being discriminated against are not from wealthy families. Those that come from well off families tend to have all the extra-curriculars that white kids from wealthier families do. It's the ones from poor families. The ones who have to work after school and weekends to help out... and still study hard. Their parents cannot afford music/dance/arts lessons. The kid can't spend hours a day volunteering. Etc. It's these kids who get shafted when universities seek "well rounded".

Many of the lower income asian kids are from recent immigrant families. Their parents who barely speak english, working low paying jobs. They sacrifice everything to try to give their kids a chance to get ahead. And push their kids crazy hard to do well in school as they see it as their only way up. Imagine the feeling when -- after years of sacrifice and hard work -- after your kid did great in school, got great SAT scores, did everything he's supposed to do... he still gets denied by every good school..

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#524

Post by fallingknife »

bradlys wrote: post #499
notSupplied wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The merit-based school such as Styuvesant in NYC and Lowell in SF are both filled with rather poor Asian kids. The demographic profile of these two schools are substantially lower income than the very expensive cities they reside in. Edit: Got the names of the schools wrong.

You know that isn't an argument against what I said, right? Like, at all. It completely supports what I said.

You said:

> If you make it so that only “merit” is considered - you’re only gonna get rich kids.

He said:

> The merit-based school such as Styuvesant in NYC and Lowell in SF are both filled with rather poor Asian kids.

> The demographic profile of these two schools are substantially lower income than the very expensive cities they reside in.

It couldn't possibly be further from supporting what you said.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#525

Post by fallingknife »

someguydave wrote: post #482
AniseAbyss wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fallacy that you went to that nice university because you're smart and not just lucky.

Do you mean that some people are lucky because they were born smart?

This is the real issue that no one wants to address.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#526

Post by stjohnswarts »

rmah wrote: post #523
stjohnswarts wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AA and other background-accounting factors have some place as an input into the system. You simply can't possibly claim that poor white rural kids in the south or black urban kids in poor neighborhoods (and all similar such situations) have the same chances at success of getting into harvard/yale/MIT as a rich white/asian kid from NYC who went to the best public/private schools (and SAT tutors) money could afford. Th…

"Rich white/asian kid from NYC" I've seen this sort of characterization a lot here. I can understand it, but it doesn't really reflect reality. I don't know a lot about other areas, but in NYC, most asians are not "wealthy". Far from it, Asians in NYC have a substantially lower median income ($53k household, $25k per capita) than whites ($69k household, $50k per capita ). More importantly, the asian kids being discri…

See "rich" as in not poor. You can't shutdown the primary reasoning of my argument and downshift it to your point. My main point was poverty and location, I really don't even give a fuck about your race. The biggest problem in this country is delineated by who has money and who doesn't. That is the 90% problem, not race.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#527

Post by thaumasiotes »

willcipriano wrote: post #253
SamReidHughes wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outside actual poverty, the kids are still getting fed, going to school, maybe they're one console generation behind two-parent households but even that's not such a big deal now...

Kids from single parent households are something like half as likely to graduate high school and considerably more likely to end up in prison. It's a big deal.

To be fair to SamReidHughes, almost none of that can be attributed to the fact that the household is missing a parent. Kids from single-parent households where the missing parent is missing through coincidence, such as by dying in an accident, perform at the same level as kids from two-parent households.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#528

Post by everforward »

root_axis wrote: post #160
ipnon wrote: post #100

It's discrimination any way you slice it. You can't lower the bar for one person without raising it for another so long as the class sizes remain the same. If elite universities are about providing education (a valid point of critical contention), then systematically barring Asians from entry is the same class of injustice litigated in Brown v. Board of Education. It's not enough to say you can learn calculus just as…

Despite the increased chances of admission, black students make up a modest 5% of the (e.g.) Harvard student body compared to Asian students and white students at 13% and 40% respectively. Ultimately, I can't justify the idea of rejecting students based on race, but when I look at those demographics I just don't see much to get worked up about. From a more cynical angle the problem almost seems like "the total percen…

> Despite the increased chances of admission, black students make up a modest 5% of the (e.g.) Harvard student body compared to Asian students and white students at 13% and 40% respectively.

The numbers are a little misleading because 25% of the students have their race listed as "non-resident alien", aka no race assigned.

Removing that group and adjusting the other percentages accordingly gives:

* 55% White (61.5% of US population)

* 20.4% Asian (5.4% of US population)

* 12.2% Hispanic (17.6% of US population)

* 7% Black (12.3 % of US population)

* 4.7% Biracial (3.1% of US population)

I was just curious about the numbers and how they stacked up to the national average, and thought others might be as well.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#529

Post by twofornone »

3pt14159 wrote: post #472
twofornone wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't true. Underfunding is not the issue with underperforming schools in the US. If you want to improve outcomes in inner city schools you need to fix the broken local culture first, but it's sort of chicken and egg. http://thinkaboutnow.com/2016/03/debunking-the-underfunded-p...

https://www.vox.com/22266219/biden-eduation-school-funding-s... . Compare the homepages of the two. I know which one I trust more. http://thinkaboutnow.com/ https://www.vox.com/

That was the first link that came up on ddg, but it's laughable to presume that vox isn't just as biased, just in the other direction. Here's a couple more on the subject. I suspect you won't find a left leaning source with this opinion because it would undermine one of the primary ideals behind modern progressive thinking, that all groups of people would magically achieve equity and equal representation across all domains if only presented with the same opportunities.

https://www.commonwealthfoundation.org/

https://www.heritage.org/education/report/the-myth-racial-di...

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#530

Post by aiisjustanif »

lordnacho wrote: post #232
giveyouareply wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be gamed. A long while back at University, I noticed very wealthy students on student income schemes that were only meant to be accessed by students whose parents qualified as low income status. The bar to qualify was quite difficult, if you had one parent employed in a job then it was unlikely you would qualify. I asked how they could qualify, while almost everyone had to work part time jobs to cover costs. I…

Seriously? So for instance I could just pay myself double this year and nothing next year from my personal corporation, and my kid would somehow pass as having a low income parent? Surely you have to count things like dividends, income in previous years, assets... Failing that just make it clear that you know when you're tricking the system and fingers will be pointed.

Nope, FASFA doesn’t even look at previous years, you could be poor now and not later as far as they are concerned. We could do a lot more research into each families situation but that’s a lot of time,effort, and probably very expensive.

You could also get married young and hide it.

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