Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination • Hacker News Board

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#151

Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 6:36 AM UTC

BadCookie wrote: post #133

tyjen wrote: post #80

I'm a confused by the equity claim to justify discriminatory behavior with what seems like heavy emphasis on race. It seems difficult to achieve equity without transparent, and standardized methods emphasizing a holistic assessment covering visible and invisible, immutable and mutable characteristics--each of which impact individual outcomes. I understand that tackling overrepresentation and underrepresentation is im…

It would be more fair to create admission quotas based on family economic status, but I can’t imagine that would ever be put into practice because it would hurt the wealthy too much. The universities wouldn’t like the financial impact either. But if true equality of opportunity were the goal, then that’s how you’d need to do it I think.

> but I can’t imagine that would ever be put into practice because it would hurt the wealthy too much.

It definitely would hurt their bottom lines, since most of the private elites also provide non-loan financial aid out of their endowments to people who can’t otherwise afford to go. That only works if only a few poorer people make it over the bar.

Public schools should step up more here, as it is their mission.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#152

Post by lenkite » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 6:39 AM UTC

markdown wrote: post #125

ipnon wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is there is no difference between Harvard's current admissions policy and telling the marginalized Asian students, "great application, but we don't accept your kind here anymore." It's not right when it happens to Asians, it's not right when it happens to Blacks, it's not right when it happens to anybody.

Quoted post unavailable.

Yes, everyone fights to be backward in India and every other year a community is added to the OBC (Other Backward Communities) list. So eventually once all communities are backward, we will once again in the future have equal opportunity.

Many people get out of India to escape this nonsense. Sad to see USA follow the backward path.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#153

Post by weq » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 6:40 AM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #97

tyjen wrote: post #80

I'm a confused by the equity claim to justify discriminatory behavior with what seems like heavy emphasis on race. It seems difficult to achieve equity without transparent, and standardized methods emphasizing a holistic assessment covering visible and invisible, immutable and mutable characteristics--each of which impact individual outcomes. I understand that tackling overrepresentation and underrepresentation is im…

> ... when emphasizing race to the degree that these academic institutions are ... There is a fairly classic manoeuvre where the elites feel threatened by the middle class, so they form an alliance with the lower classes to fight them. Eg, a lot of tax & spend policies make it harder to accumulate wealth in the middle class but the very wealthy can shield themselves. If Asians are not benefiting from being a racial m…

100% this is poltical properganda. Asians are conservative gold-mines in Australia. Somehow our version of the Republicans have convinced them they are on their side, while also playing the jobs saviour for the working class and being anti-asian. its a schitzophrenic relationship underscored public debts subsidising private profits.

The only this article points out correctly is that "Elite" universities, and therefor most modern day research in every field, is tainted by Racist Aristrocratic idealogies. They protect their own kind at the expense of all others.

If you are dreaming of an elite school, you are the problem. You give them power.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#154

Post by tqi » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 6:40 AM UTC

markdown wrote: post #112

ipnon wrote: post #100

It's discrimination any way you slice it. You can't lower the bar for one person without raising it for another so long as the class sizes remain the same. If elite universities are about providing education (a valid point of critical contention), then systematically barring Asians from entry is the same class of injustice litigated in Brown v. Board of Education. It's not enough to say you can learn calculus just as…

Quoted post unavailable.

I think there is clearly a problem of inequality of opportunity in America, and Affirmative Action is probably a necessary bandaid to heal the legacy of slavery and racism.

However based on the evidence presented, the admission policies at Harvard (and other schools like it) were absolutely appalling. The systematically lower "personality" scores for Asian applicants and the dean of admission's testimony about "geographic" diversity[1] paint the picture of a school that did not ask Asian American applicants to make a sacrifice in the name of the great good, but rather told them they did not deserve a spot on merit because they were boring, foreign grinds.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/27/opinion/affirmative-actio...

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#155

Post by verve_rat » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 6:43 AM UTC

markdown wrote: post #120

friedman23 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it's good for society I feel like you've taken this position as a fact without having any evidence supporting it.

[flagged]

I'm guessing... Fiji?

I don't think ignoring the impact of the British being in charge and how that advantage flowed on to the Indian population, that they imported into Fiji to work for the British, is helpful at all.

The British turned up, imported a bunch of Indians, and fucked up the local social structure.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#156

Post by lenkite » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 6:44 AM UTC

Mavvie wrote: post #132

xvector wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism is not good for society. You cannot justify holding Asian-Americans to a higher level because "they can handle it." Asians are part of society too, and yet Asian-American children have dramatically different and more stressful childhoods than their counterparts - a constant churn of studying, stress, and pressure, compared to the relatively carefree childhoods of their peers. It disgusts me that you can say "t…

I haven't formed a strong opinion on affirmative action yet. > You cannot justify holding Asian-Americans to a higher level because "they can handle it." The person you're replying to didn't say anything like that. > It disgusts me that you can say "this is good for America" when Asian-American children have to go through a nightmare to have a chance at opportunities comparable to their peers, simply because of the c…

Out of curiosity, when will your affirmative action actually stop ? At what magical point will diversity be considered as "complete" ?

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#157

Post by pyuser583 » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 6:45 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #143

ipnon wrote: post #100

It's discrimination any way you slice it. You can't lower the bar for one person without raising it for another so long as the class sizes remain the same. If elite universities are about providing education (a valid point of critical contention), then systematically barring Asians from entry is the same class of injustice litigated in Brown v. Board of Education. It's not enough to say you can learn calculus just as…

Did Brown vs. Board of Education ever apply to private schools (like Harvard and unlike U Mass)? I’m guessing private schools had some rules applied to them later, but that was way after Brown and probably under different laws not arising from the constitution.

Kind of. When Congress passed the Civil Rights act in the 1960s, the courts became much less aggressive in finding racial equity in the US Constitution, because it simply wasn’t necessary.

Private high schools that had segregation policies ran the risk of having their tax status revoked messed with by the IRS.

Colleges get tons of money from the federal government, which is conditional on not discriminating - and keeping federal government happy.

So private secondary schools still have a fair amount of leeway. Not infinite, but in reality they don’t have to worry about lawsuits like this.

Colleges do.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#158

Post by tqi » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 6:45 AM UTC

markdown wrote: post #120

friedman23 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it's good for society I feel like you've taken this position as a fact without having any evidence supporting it.

[flagged]

Wait... is your belief that the "indigenous population" can't get ahead because their culture doesn't value education / hard work?? I think you have grossly misunderstood both the reasoning behind Affirmative Action and the root causes of inequality.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#159

Post by carrionpigeon » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 6:47 AM UTC

j7ake wrote: post #109

Would it be more fair to weight applicants by household income rather than race? For example, given two equally strong applicants, but one is from upper class and the other lower class, it seems clear that the lower class applicant is stronger, because they were able to achieve similarly with fewer resources.

When I was in high school, one student's parents (one doctor and one lawyer --- very financially well-off) took off work for one year just so they could claim having no income on the FAFSA documentation. She got accepted everywhere, winning across the places she applied over $300,000 in scholarships. The upper-middle class and wealthy can easily game this.

Edit: I should also add that the student and both parents were black. This probably played a large role in the offers.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#160

Post by root_axis » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 6:47 AM UTC

ipnon wrote: post #100

It's discrimination any way you slice it. You can't lower the bar for one person without raising it for another so long as the class sizes remain the same. If elite universities are about providing education (a valid point of critical contention), then systematically barring Asians from entry is the same class of injustice litigated in Brown v. Board of Education. It's not enough to say you can learn calculus just as…

Despite the increased chances of admission, black students make up a modest 5% of the (e.g.) Harvard student body compared to Asian students and white students at 13% and 40% respectively. Ultimately, I can't justify the idea of rejecting students based on race, but when I look at those demographics I just don't see much to get worked up about. From a more cynical angle the problem almost seems like "the total percentage of black people is a few points too high". I understand that there are real people behind these statistics, but this is true no matter which racial bucket you land in.

I'll also add, the paper you linked sort of muddies the waters on your point.

> Based on complete data for three applicant cohorts to three of the most academically selective research universities, we show that admission bonuses for athletes and legacies rival, and sometimes even exceed, the size of preferences for underrepresented minority applicants.

That is to say, there is a lot going on in the admissions process, but it isn't clear to me that much is gained by insisting on a racial perspective. With all that stated, it seems obvious that Asian Americans should fight against discrimination that statistically disadvantages them based on their identity. It's unfortunate that a quality education is a finite pie we have to divvy up into thin slices.