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More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

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Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#521

Post by ryathal »

_fat_santa wrote: post #95
ChicagoDave wrote: post #28

I have 3 college-aged kids and one nearly there. Their universal concern is the cost. It has become prohibitive. Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable. They were dead wrong, especially given the horrendously predatory loans backed by the government and barred from bankruptcy. If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would likely skyrocket.

Thought it's not as glamorous as a 4 year college experience, I highly suggest going to a Community College for the first two years and then transferring to a state school. I did this and through I resented it at the time, I existed college with around $30k in student debt versus my friends that all has something in range of ($40k to $80k). IMO 30k in student debt is very manageable, currently have the thing paid dow…

If you can reach into savings and wipe out your student loan, you absolutely should before they start charging interest again.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#522

Post by ravitation »

endisneigh wrote: post #444
indymike wrote: post #314

There are three problems that colleges need to fix. 1) Skilled trades pay better than most bachelor's degree track jobs. My kids can make more money with a six month apprenticeship than they will with all but a few 4 year degrees. If you can drive a forklift, you can make $45K/yr... which is identical to what an firsty year teacher makes. 2) There are better options than college for many. One of my daughters did a si…

Im very skeptical of this post: 1. Many trades also pay like crap and have a very limited window in which you can do it. In addition many are not welcoming to women at all, regardless even if you take the highest paying trades, do they pay more than the highest paying careers that require higher education? 2. Which boot camp? How many people ended up like your daughter? How much was it? Without these facts no compari…

> 1. Many trades also pay like crap and have a very limited window in which you can do it. In addition many are not welcoming to women at all, regardless even if you take the highest paying trades, do they pay more than the highest paying careers that require higher education?

Exactly.

These types of post often ignore the actual work being done.

A graduate student might make a comparable hourly rate to an amazon warehouse employee, but he or she can also go to the bathroom and sit down.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#523

Post by indymike »

endisneigh wrote: post #444
indymike wrote: post #314

There are three problems that colleges need to fix. 1) Skilled trades pay better than most bachelor's degree track jobs. My kids can make more money with a six month apprenticeship than they will with all but a few 4 year degrees. If you can drive a forklift, you can make $45K/yr... which is identical to what an firsty year teacher makes. 2) There are better options than college for many. One of my daughters did a si…

Im very skeptical of this post: 1. Many trades also pay like crap and have a very limited window in which you can do it. In addition many are not welcoming to women at all, regardless even if you take the highest paying trades, do they pay more than the highest paying careers that require higher education? 2. Which boot camp? How many people ended up like your daughter? How much was it? Without these facts no compari…

> 1. Many trades also pay like crap and have a very limited window in which you can do it.

I'm not sure what you mean by limited window unless we are talking about professional athletes and some categories of manual laborers.

> In addition many are not welcoming to women at all, regardless even if you take the highest paying trades

This is rapidly changing. Also, there are also skilled trades that are mostly women (e.g. cosmetologist, many medical roles).

> do they pay more than the highest paying careers that require higher education?

When we factor out jobs that require 8-12 years of education, in general, yes the trades aren't a bad deal.

> 2. Which boot camp? How many people ended up like your daughter? How much was it? Without these facts no comparison can be made.

I'm not turning this into an ad for the school my daughter went to. Cost was literally 1/2 of he first year salary over $40,000. It was capped at a maximum amount. She ended up paying about $6k, but it was contingent on her getting a job that payed better than $40k.

3. Some colleges perhaps, smart people can get full scholarships and even without that community college plus a cheap state school isn’t expensive.

I have five kids. My first was straight As, great test scores, and we still ended up with $6-8k of expense per semester after the full ride scholarships paid for tuition at a small private college.

Ok, here is the biggest community college in the US: Ivy Tech. $2,400 per semester for 12 hours, plus fees. It's not that expensive, but they also have less than 20% of students complete their degrees...

> Link to your study? Did these people not go to college?

It didn't matter what education level they attained, across the population the outcome was consistent. Having a job while young made a huge difference - almost as much as having a degree.

4. As you’ve already demonstrated college is hardly required let alone loans.

Yep.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#524

Post by chaostheory »

endisneigh wrote: post #444
indymike wrote: post #314

There are three problems that colleges need to fix. 1) Skilled trades pay better than most bachelor's degree track jobs. My kids can make more money with a six month apprenticeship than they will with all but a few 4 year degrees. If you can drive a forklift, you can make $45K/yr... which is identical to what an firsty year teacher makes. 2) There are better options than college for many. One of my daughters did a si…

Im very skeptical of this post: 1. Many trades also pay like crap and have a very limited window in which you can do it. In addition many are not welcoming to women at all, regardless even if you take the highest paying trades, do they pay more than the highest paying careers that require higher education? 2. Which boot camp? How many people ended up like your daughter? How much was it? Without these facts no compari…

> 1. Many trades also pay like crap and have a very limited window in which you can do it.

Which is why the parent comment specifically mentioned "skilled trades". If you're not familiar with the term, think plumber or electrician instead of roofer or outdoor landscaper. The working window for skilled trades is also far greater than software engineering.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#525

Post by Animats »

The product colleges sell is guaranteed entry to the middle class. Since they no longer can provide that, especially at the two year college level, their market is shrinking.

What we need is a better life for the working class, not more college. Start by getting serious about wage and hour laws, and start throwing employers in jail.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#526

Post by magicloop »

wayoutthere wrote: post #396
merolish wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do applicant interviews for my alma mater (MIT). The number of students applying has skyrocketed, and it sounds like it's the same for peer schools. https://thetech.com/2021/03/18/regular-admissions-2025 Tuition has doubled since I went there, but at least they can afford good financial aid for those who can get in.

Yeah I suspect people have wised up to the fact that the alumni base of a program matters more than pretty much anything else. So unless you’re at a prestige program at a prestige school, college probably isn’t going to pay off as well. Thus the piling in to elite universities while overall enrollment drops off.

You've hit the nail on the head here.

Education is primarily a prestige product. Secondarily, the social and alumni effects of the network around you when you attend. Thirdly, it is the college campus experience. Fourthly, it is what you actually learn.

If you just price the value of each of these four pieces, the dynamic in the market is completely explained. Community college still provides learning, but not much on the other three factors. That is, it has become poor value for the fees it charges despite them being lower in absolute terms than prestige schools.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#527

Post by indymike »

endisneigh wrote: post #481
rootsudo wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not surprised at all - people with degrees try to find reasons to think they're better then the rest. 1. Many trades also are your own business, and can immediately scale for income - many plumbers, electricians, etc are millionaires with a small team of employees less than 15. 2. Google offers free marketing certification for this reason as well, it's not impossible for marketing/seo people to make 100k annually…

1. You can also start your own business with a college degree. Let’s compare like for like here. 2. Where are the stats? 3. Sure, many colleges are worth it too. State schools don’t cost 45k a semester. Don’t know how you can spread misinformation. 4. Community college can be very cheap, it depends on where you are and how poor you are so it’s hard to draw broad strokes here.

> 1. You can also start your own business with a college degree. Let’s compare like for like here.

A degree is not required at all to start a business. Evidence: Microsoft, Dell.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#528

Post by indymike »

granshaw wrote: post #334
jimmyjazz14 wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the first two are problems colleges need to fix I think its more of a matter that we need to change our mindset about who should be attending college maybe some people would be better off going the trade school route.

Part of the problem is the social stigma of not having a college degree. Not sure how to fix that

I solved it by starting my own company :-)

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#529

Post by devwastaken »

learc83 wrote: post #179
devwastaken wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bill infront of me isnt lying. The amount of student loans is not enough to cover the costs, therefore requiring private loans or someone else to pay it. So either all these parents are paying it, or they're taking out private loans. Or, more likely, the stats are collected poorly as they typically are. Same as how unis are allowed to lie about job placement rates.

The fact that you are forced to take out private loans isn't evidence that the vast majority of students are. College tuitions and housing prices vary wildly, many students live with family, many students have merit based scholarships. Many states have copied Georgia and have lottery funded scholarships that covers the majority of in state tuition for students with a B average in high school. >Or, more likely, the st…

I've done enough work in data collection and stats to know that generalized statistics are almost always associated with false conclusions that avoid context of their data. An org will not advocate against itself willingly because it's workers like their jobs. Therefore, I trust the bill that many students have. The evidence I have readily available concludes that scholarships are rare, student loans aren't enough, and students have become cash cows.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#530

Post by bastardoperator »

ChicagoDave wrote: post #28

I have 3 college-aged kids and one nearly there. Their universal concern is the cost. It has become prohibitive. Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable. They were dead wrong, especially given the horrendously predatory loans backed by the government and barred from bankruptcy. If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would likely skyrocket.

My nephew did community college (free) for two years and transferred in state to the UC system which is about 14K a year. He qualified for some grants/scholarships which covered more than half the cost for each semester. He was able to pay off his school loans in his first year out of college. School costs are insane, but there are easy ways to save considerable amounts of money.
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