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A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#521

Post by cmarschner »

acdha wrote: post #394
gandutraveler wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions will only help the rest & vest culture. I worked at Google and trust me there is so much fat that can be trimmed there. Especially the ones who have been there for 7+ years.. With unions it will get harder to fire them and at the same time they will need to be compensated equally. Software is not a profession where output is proportional to work hours like blue collar jobs. This will demoralize engineers to wo…

> This will demoralize engineers to work smarter & harder. This is, of course, why Germany is famously an engineering wasteland with no notable impact on the global economy. In reality, it all comes down to contracts: union employees can have performance incentives just like everyone else. The primary difference is that they’re above board and consistent because they come from a legal agreement rather than private ne…

>This is, of course, why Germany is famously an engineering wasteland with no notable impact on the global economy.

I suppose you're only referring to _software engineering_?

Because in traditional engineering Germany is a powerhouse, with countless market leaders in their individual niches, plus the ubiquitous car and machinery industries.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#522

Post by lumost »

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

I think Unions could go a long way to ensuring engineers get a fair (meaning transparent) equity deal.

I've certainly been taken for a ride before, with one Series C+ company's board delaying all equity grants for a year because they didn't want to pay for 409A valuation until they raised more money ( they never raised more money, everyone got screwed).

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#523

Post by BurningFrog »

jollofricepeas wrote: post #347
objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

Great point. The funny thing about unions is that the HN community believes that every other organization and industry can be disrupted...EXCEPT unions. It’s hilarious. The comments are usually all anecdotal with some story about an uncle or father who was “screwed over” by his union back in the 80s or 90s. We are capable of creating a new type of union and making collective bargaining better than what previous gener…

> We are capable of creating a new type of union...

Can you give examples of such new types of unions that have been established the last 1-2 decades, and how they differ from the "legacy" versions?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#524

Post by Zardoz84 »

avianlyric wrote: post #84
karl11 wrote: post #60

Don't think we've ever seen Hollywood in the modern era without unions, so not sure how you can claim it's "undeniable" the industry is better off. We basically have no clue if it's better off or not. Unions are intended for industries where a worker doesn't have a marketplace of options as there is a single or just a few employers (e.g. Hollywood, teachers, coal mining towns, hospital staff, etc.). Unionizing at Goo…

> People don't want to leave a cushy job for one where they would have to work harder for their money, so instead, they are trying other means to have their cake and eat it too. You're saying this like it's a bad thing. Why shouldn't employees expect, and get, better working conditions? > engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better" How is individuals leaving "coll…

> This is just a mis-conception, look at Germany where every industry has unions, regardless of size, and unions has a say in how companies are run, and what direction they head in. They make sure that shareholders and employees get input into the highest levels of leadership, ensuring that shareholders can't force decisions that benefit shareholders at the detriment of employees.

Well, well... Germany it's far from being true unions working. They are more like "labor rights consultant company".

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#525

Post by mancerayder »

capableweb wrote: post #402
mancerayder wrote: post #391

Two thoughts as I wake up to this: 1) "Arranged as a members-only union, the new organization won’t seek collective bargaining rights to negotiate a new contract with the company" What use will that be, if they don't collectively bargain, as a, em, collective of employees? The next step would be to pressure everyone to join, or the whole thing won't be very effective. 2) If the thing were to work, then I'd expect the…

Contract bargaining for the members is not the only thing a union usually does. There are loads more to it, great starting point to learn more about unions would be to read through the Wikipedia page before dismissing the idea, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union If it wasn't clear to people working at Google before, if the company moves somewhere in order to lessen the power of their employees, I sure ho…

> There are loads more to it, great starting point to learn more about unions

A great starting point to sound condescending, as well.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#526

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg »

ddingus wrote: post #373
finnthehuman wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions Because everyone talking about unionization refuses to get into the nitty gritty of what I might gain, what I might lose, and the structural changes to the workplaces that are inherent with unionization. And if/when I/others start spitballing about what those might be we're treated like dolts uneducated on organized labor, and should just…

The better organizers will have a priority discussion. What terms improve things for everyone? How should work be? From there, they build solidarity around those terms. When the vision maps to 80 / 90 percent of labor at that enterprise, the effort to unionize can win.

> When the vision maps to 80 / 90 percent of labor at that enterprise, the effort to unionize can win.

The odds of this happening at Google in the next ten years are pretty low, I'd say. That's why they organized this as a members-only union rather than trying to do a real unionization drive.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#527

Post by wbl »

karl11 wrote: post #110
avianlyric wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People don't want to leave a cushy job for one where they would have to work harder for their money, so instead, they are trying other means to have their cake and eat it too. You're saying this like it's a bad thing. Why shouldn't employees expect, and get, better working conditions? > engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better" How is individuals leaving "coll…

Employees can ask for better, but when you already work at the company that pays and treats their employees like Google, I'm not sure what more you are entitled to. It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. There are very few perils of leaving Google - a top tier company in an industry t…

Not having sexual abusers in management stay with no repercussions?

Why shouldn't Googlers be entitled to more of what they produce?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#529

Post by JediWing »

ineedasername wrote: post #481
objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve Unfortunately, through my own experience being in one & observing other unions, they often end up serving the organization of the union itself. They may still work for the workers, but also end up making decisions that are better for the union than for the workers. Right now, my kids are learning remotely. Howe…

This isn't a power trip by union leadership/ "the organization of the union itself" though?

It's a real concern about the safety and working conditions, and how a lack of a unified front can lead to fissures when negotiating that could actually hurt a majority of union members.

The unions members probably mostly prefer work from home due to safety concerns. Should the school district wish to demand all teachers report to the building, the negotiation position of the union is significantly weakened if the administration can say "well 25% of your membership is already in the building" as a justification for denying hazard pay, further health and safety precautions, etc.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#530

Post by [deleted] »

panarky wrote: post #471
scsilver wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I full on support their goal to clean up their yard before moving somewhere else. Employees are stakeholders and can use their leverage as they please. You somehow cast a negative moral light on workers for using this leverage when every other stakeholder, managment, stockholders, board members, government agencies, voters all use their leverage to change the ecosystem. Entitlement? You are entitled to what you can g…

This shows how deeply ingrained right-wing ideology has become in America. Outside America it is obvious that billionaires, oligarchs and CEOs wield power in their own self-interest, and that workers benefit from collective action in their own self-interest. But inside America the billionaires, oligarchs and CEOs are mythologized as benevolent actors, and workers should be thankful for the gifts graciously bestowed u…

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