Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#521

Post by stale2002 » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 7:07 PM UTC

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #79

ghostcluster wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've got to just hope that Apple realizes how bad this would blow up in their face if they worked with police in Belarus to identify democratic protestors, especially given their emphasis on "privacy" in their marketing.

How would it blow up in their face when Apple's customers don't care? Apple has handed over the entire operation of iCloud in China to a regime owned company, including all user data and keys (they did warn users that they were going to do that though). At the same time they do not permit side-loading, thereby handing complete control over what users are allowed to install on their devices to authoritarian regimes. T…

> How would it blow up in their face when Apple's customers don't care?

There are multiple of different negative actions that can be taken against a company, beyond just customers refusing to buy the product.

These potential actions have the ability to cause Apple, and their employees, lots of harm.

For example, in America, one negative action that many people are taking against Apple is lawsuits (Apple has lots some lawsuits, in the past, and lost a bunch of money over it).

But, there could be many other ways to harm Apple, beyond those examples. EX negative publicity, people or companies refusing to work with Apple, and many other things.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#522

Post by jwalgenbach » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 7:09 PM UTC

qPM9l3XJrF wrote: post #384

jwalgenbach wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a false equivalency. One is a group objecting to rigged elections and another is a group that advocates for violence against others based on ethnicity. Those are very different things, and it is necessary to differentiate between the two.

I didn't claim they were equivalent.

Really? Your answer to Apple restricting information posted by people protesting elections is to ask how people would feel about restricting information from white supremacist terrorists. At the very least, this is a whataboutism argument, trying to shift the discussion away.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#523

Post by SauciestGNU » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 7:10 PM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #519

dan-robertson wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One issue is that public attitudes to doxxing vary between places. What is unacceptable in America may be considered more normal elsewhere. In this specific situation there’s a pretty obvious power imbalance where the public do not wear masks and the authorities would be able to track them down and oppress them later (or just do what they currently do and grab them from the streets at the time). The threat of unmaski…

Is doxxing a police officer even unacceptable in America? There is very different standard of privacy between an average Joe and an agent of the state performing their duties.

If I've been reading the news correctly, the investigation into the terrorist plot against the Michigan governor was launched because someone was trying to learn the home addresses of police officers. Seems like that is not very well accepted in America.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#524

Post by ddingus » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 7:10 PM UTC

vorpalhex wrote: post #517

extropy wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the guys should have thought about that before they started attacking peaceful protesters. This is just one tool, and there will be killing with or without it.

I'm sure a bit of murdering will totally cool things down and peacefully resolve things, with no innocent deaths or casualties. As we all know, vigilantes never make mistakes.

Doesn't this go right back to thinking things through before attacking people people?

Right or wrong, when people are abused repeatedly, and or they cease to believe in governance, they will act out and it won't all be nice.

The root cause here is an authoritarian regime failing to justify their authority. People acting out is a symptom.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#525

Post by ddingus » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 7:16 PM UTC

jimbokun wrote: post #473

thatjamesdude wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whilst I agree with the specifics here, the problem is the general case. I don't agree that you should be allowed to post people's private, identifying data to a public forum without consent. This HAS to apply equally, because the idea that there is a universal set of right and wrong is incredibly naive. A better argument here is how the laws aren't applied equally. TrueCaller was used by the Chinese to harass and at…

The problem is somehow we have engineered a global society where Apple is the ultimate law enforcement authority in scenarios like this. Is Tim Cook really qualified to be the ultimate authority of what speech is allowed or not allowed on a global basis, at least for all the billions of people who use their devices? Similarly for Facebook, Twitter, Google, etc. We cannot allow a very small number of corporate CEOs to…

Either we remedy that, or we need to enforce a form of due process.

Tim Cook is not qualified. No single person is.

That suggests either:

Apple stay out and the discussion moves to Telegram

, or

Apple and others need a formalized process, just like we use for other conflicts.

A case needs to be made, rules of order, etc... and a decision comes from all of that, not what makes more money, or what might cost money.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#526

Post by fsflover » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 7:21 PM UTC

akudha wrote: post #434

whimsicalism wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not me. I feel like Apple has to actually compete with often times higher quality luxury products in 2020. No reason for me to buy any new Apple products and after this news, I won’t.

But you are in the minority. Also, what other alternatives do we have? Google, Amazon, Microsoft... all equally bad or worse. I can't think of any big tech company really standing up to authoritarian (or even democratic) governments, can you?

Not a big one at all, but https://puri.sm is trying to stand up.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#527

Post by 188201 » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 7:25 PM UTC

metiscus wrote: post #518

baybal2 wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doxxing regime supporters can easily end up as a "murder todo list" if things heat up. Do you give an innuendo that this is somehow wrong?

Yes. Murdering people that you disagree politically with is wrong. Even the actual nazis were allowed to surrender and stand trial. Vigilantism is nearly always a bad thing.

Who can put Nazi on trial? The people in Germany? History said it was the ally. And ally has killed many Nazi before they can put Nazi on trial.

If you don't see the power imbalance between the government and the people, then you are very lucky that you had not experienced it.

Not trying to justify murdering, but some kind of deterrence for oppressing peaceful, freedom-loving people is not a bad thing. Of course if it become French Revolution style execution after taking power, that is wrong and it must be stopped. For the moment, that is before that state, so anything can be bearable.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#528

Post by stale2002 » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 7:28 PM UTC

dividedbyzero wrote: post #368

411111111111111 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody wants to remove all security policies etc from iOS. I'm not sure what gave you that idea in this thread. Requiring permissions from users to access data is good, and an actually well curated app store is just as useful. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be possible to install through different avenues as well (still requiring the users permission). Yes you would get a lot of shitty software if you started in…

> Nobody wants to remove all security policies etc from iOS. I'm not sure what gave you that idea in this thread. I think you misunderstood me there. Of course permission systems are going to stay, who in their right mind would give up this crucial innovation? But free-as-in-freedom implies that I, the owner and user, can do whatever I want, including triggering all sorts of footguns – if I get tricked into installin…

> if I get tricked into installing

Do you think that people are incapable of using personal computers then? Just the regular old PC.

This argument falls flat on its face, because it is blatantly obvious, that, for some reason, people are capable of using PCs, and don't explode from the confusion of doing so.

Every single argument that you are making, could apply to the PC. But people still do alright using PCs. Phones should not be any different.

> good luck with crafting a permission system

How are they doing that on the PC? PCs work fine.

> how is someone who's busy being a lawyer

Thats an interesting question. Which has an answer. How does a lawyer use a PC, right now? So thats how they'll do it.

> pretty much like the internet back then

Why do we have to talk about the internet from a long time ago? Just talk about the current internet. Which people use. On the PC. Right now.

> t there's absolutely no way to open up iOS without wreaking havoc

Just do it the same way that PCs currently work. Right now. Because PCs work, right now, and society is not falling apart.

> because we've been there in the early internet and security-wise it was an absolute nightmare.

We don't need to talk about the early internet. Just make the iPhone the same as modern day PCs. Which people are already capable of using just fine.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#529

Post by MiscIdeaMaker99 » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 7:30 PM UTC

anoncareer0212 wrote: post #516

antris wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But isn't the former governor pretty much a puppet of the Chinese Communist Party though?

nah they're still a person, the conversion to puppet proved more difficult than expected

ROFL

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#530

Post by sudosysgen » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 7:31 PM UTC

SauciestGNU wrote: post #523

sudosysgen wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is doxxing a police officer even unacceptable in America? There is very different standard of privacy between an average Joe and an agent of the state performing their duties.

If I've been reading the news correctly, the investigation into the terrorist plot against the Michigan governor was launched because someone was trying to learn the home addresses of police officers. Seems like that is not very well accepted in America.

Was this not simply about getting the names of masked secret police?

Also, the issue with getting the gome adresses of police officers in that case is that the intent was to bomb them, not getting their address per se, as that really is quite easily done and not something the state would notice.