My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works • Hacker News Board

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#521

Post by Pfhreak » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

DenisM wrote: post #489

Pfhreak wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police unions are almost all terrible. Seattle kicked their police union out of the local labor council, and it would be great to see more cities do the same.

Any additional information on how Seattle police union is terrible?

They've consistently pushed back on reforms from both the community and the federal consent decree. They insist they are 'tough on crime' and the city is holding them back, going so far as to demand people vote out the city council.

They've described the concerns about policing as "the flavor of the week", they fought against body cams, they've defended police in well documented cases of retaliatory and unbecoming behavior.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#522

Post by throwaway0a5e » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 9:46 PM UTC

air7 wrote: post #475

pjc50 wrote: post #22

> “I blame myself,” she kept saying. “I never let him out on Halloween. A bunch of Black boys together. I shouldn’t have let him out. But he begged me.” Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police. (Just to spell it out: this is why so many BLM activists feel comfortable saying "abolish the…

I just don't get it. The number of unarmed black men shot by police across the entire US in 2019 was 14. [0] How does such a small number spark this level of fear and protest? Also, do people actually think the police generally and on average does more harm than good as to request abolishing it? [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police...

>The number of unarmed black men shot by police across the entire US in 2019 was 14. [0] How does such a small number spark this level of fear and protest?

Because the police routinely treat people who aren't police or aren't visibly well to do (which being white goes a long way toward) like crap.

People will tolerate that or they'll tolerate some deaths but they won't tolerate both.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#523

Post by michaelmrose » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 9:48 PM UTC

anoonmoose wrote: post #318

asjw wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to disagree with the post in general, but at a thousand/year shot and killed by the police in US, they probably are one of the most dangerous threat For comparison in Italy in 2019 there have been 3 people killed by the police, and people have - rightfully IMO - complained every single time. In US more than 1k (1040 to be precise) died shot by cops If we compare the population, there should have been at least 180…

Many, many, many more people in the US are shooting themselves or others than getting shot by police. We're talking like, 1K per year shot by cops versus 100 PER DAY of overall gun murder/suicide. Yes, police violence is a problem, but the 1K shot by cops is mostly an artifact of our crazy high overall gun violence problem. Edit: so, to summarize, yes, I do think that our crazy high number of people shot by police pe…

Lets start with the actual number of gun related homicides per day 40.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

You are comparing the number of gun deaths in 2 populations and concluding that the difference in total deaths indicates a commensurate increase in dangerous situations faced by officers. Your inclusion of gun suicides makes it extremely difficult to be charitable with your interpretation.

Greater gun suicides correlates with hopelessness and availability of guns not danger to officers and these deaths of despair are literally 60% of the gun deaths you are talking about! Half of the remaining were murdered by someone they know. Most of the remaining 20 not 100 daily murders seemingly random violent murders aren't really random they are criminals murdering other criminals.

Cops aren't overwhelmingly dealing with gang bangers they are overwhelmingly dealing with members of the general population and lots of low level offenders because that is what's out there. That is who they are murdering. They are murdering a broad swath of the population mostly not entirely focused on black people literally because they can get away with it.

Instead of pretending we can't look at the deaths in proper context we ought to analyze the deaths in their proper context. Although this is hard to do in a comment thread your reasoning is in this case worse than nothing because it gives one the false impression that you have a handle on it.

Please stop apologizing for murderers.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#524

Post by hef19898 » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 9:48 PM UTC

pnako wrote: post #496

hef19898 wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. My wife is french, never really about that. Also, Berlin is assumed to have some. I drank beer in bar in one of those once. Found about it later. So, I assume a lot of propaganda around that?

Why would it be propaganda? Is it inconceivable for you that such places could exist?

So, all of these places I saw portrait as such in media, mostly conservative to right leaning ones in Europe, or FOX news, turned out to be no no-go areas in reality.

Using footage from demonstrations that got out of hand, civil unrest at one point and overblown as well as wrongly cited numbers are all that is to that.

And yes, in Europe there is no such thing as no-go zone where police don't go and all you have is anarchy.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#525

Post by thomastjeffery » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 9:49 PM UTC

throwaway59832 wrote: post #512

pjc50 wrote: post #22

> “I blame myself,” she kept saying. “I never let him out on Halloween. A bunch of Black boys together. I shouldn’t have let him out. But he begged me.” Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police. (Just to spell it out: this is why so many BLM activists feel comfortable saying "abolish the…

> Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police. Black people killed by police in 2018 [1]: 209 Black people murdered by civilians (of any race) in 2018 [2]: 7,407 White people killed by police in 2018 [1]: 399 White people murdered by civilians in 2018 [2]: 6088 Aren’t criminals a greater th…

This sort of argument clumps everyone everywhere together as a statistic.

The problem domain is much more granular than that. You would need to collect statistics on a specific community in order to get an informed conclusion about the events in that community.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#526

Post by loudtieblahblah » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 9:49 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #22

> “I blame myself,” she kept saying. “I never let him out on Halloween. A bunch of Black boys together. I shouldn’t have let him out. But he begged me.” Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police. (Just to spell it out: this is why so many BLM activists feel comfortable saying "abolish the…

I'm a BLM supporter. And think the police need massive reform. I'd love to see their unions busted up to boot.

But if we're going off statistics...

Black people are more likely to die or be injured from other black people more than they are by cops.

By, like, a lot.

this article showcases how impervious cops are to taking responsibility, especially against the poor and powerless.

But your comment of being more afraid of the cops over the crime in their own neighborhoods reeks of Americans being more scared of terrorism than heart disease.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#527

Post by chinesempire » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 9:49 PM UTC

ljm wrote: post #490

noobaccount wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, how can we be more like Italy?

It's not just Italy... the entirety of the European continent sets a great example, even acknowledging the corruption that still takes place. The question to the US is: how can they become less insular and more open to ways of living that aren't strictly 'American'? You would think the constitution is now set in stone: societal progression is at a complete halt after committing to a few rules 200 or so years ago. And…

It's probably even worse than being insular

I don't blame the people of US, but their cultural system, I do.

Those who criticize or just reports things that don't work in the States are immediately flagged as anti American, it's like an instinct.

Their homicide stats are worse than many developing countries in Africa, four time worse than Canada, six times worse than China, ten times worse than Europe and Asia

Singapore's homicide rate is 30 times lower than in US!

It's really a lot

It's a failure, no matter how one frames it

But it's still very hard to get the general population to confront the numbers

They say you shouldn't shoot the messenger, but even on HN, where people are generally more educated than the average, it's really hard to start a conversation about the causes of this debacle

I lost 20 points of karma in two days because I showed stats about police brutality in US

I hope they'll get it one day, I live in Europe, my country has a lot of problems and there are many things that US does better and we looked at them for decades in search of a solution to our shortcomings

But if there's one thing we do well in EU is how our police handles critical situation, it varies from country to country of course and there are exceptions, Poland is not Spain, but in general it's true

So why not try to listen for once?

I don't have an answer honestly.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#528

Post by taurath » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 9:51 PM UTC

jeffdavis wrote: post #241

pjc50 wrote: post #22

> “I blame myself,” she kept saying. “I never let him out on Halloween. A bunch of Black boys together. I shouldn’t have let him out. But he begged me.” Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police. (Just to spell it out: this is why so many BLM activists feel comfortable saying "abolish the…

Blacks are killed by police disproportionately by a factor of around 2-3x. For such a remote occurrance, a small factor doesn't justify the difference between carefree and paralyzed by fear. Automobile accidents kill a lot more people than police do, but I doubt most people bother to know the risks of cars within a factor of 2-3x. The fear may be there, but I don't see it justified in the numbers. Blacks are also dis…

Do you think that Black people are ONLY fed up with getting murdered by the police? That is not an isolated statistic.

How about beaten (see threads of hundreds). Arrested (in 2012 7% of black people were arrested vs 2.9% of whites). Sent to prison (2500 per 100,000 vs 450 for whites). How about being late to an important meeting because a cop saw you driving. People want freaking respect and your argument is minimizing it into just murders (which are absolutely HORRIFYING and TERRORIZE communities, which could've used a mention).

Please try to pay more attention to the actual arguments.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#529

Post by nailer » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 9:54 PM UTC

alistairSH wrote: post #251

nailer wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's not correct - while both would generally be considered 'black', sub Saharan Africans share very little cultural experience with African Americans.

Fair enough. But, as soon as the sub-Saharan African moves to the US, I suspect his experiences from that point forward will rapidly start to match those of Black Americans, particularly WRT to police use of force.

African immigrants generally strive, similar to Asian immigrants. The Nigerian stereotype is being a doctor. Issues like fatherless children, teenage pregnancy, juvenile delinquency and gang culture will likely be less prevalent, and the Africans will likely be less involved with the police.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#530

Post by michaelmrose » Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 9:54 PM UTC

asjw wrote: post #331

asjw wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to disagree with the post in general, but at a thousand/year shot and killed by the police in US, they probably are one of the most dangerous threat For comparison in Italy in 2019 there have been 3 people killed by the police, and people have - rightfully IMO - complained every single time. In US more than 1k (1040 to be precise) died shot by cops If we compare the population, there should have been at least 180…

Well, both of the previous answers prove my point US is a a dangerous country and the police is not doing a good job at all If there are so many homicides, who should prevent them? If after killing a hundred people a month (by shooting at them, I presented only the numbers of those killed by a police shooting) they can't even make a dent on the (horrible) numbers, it means they are doing a very bad job. Tertium non d…

Using the pretext of traffic stops as an excuse to search vehicles for small amounts of drugs and then shooting people reaching for their wallets doesn't do much to prevent murders.

Police murders aren't meaningfully correlated with crime prevention.