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France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

reuters.com

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Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#521

Post by cheerlessbog »

spookware wrote: post #285
gns24 wrote: post #192

The UK already taxes flights in a similar way. Whilst this does feel like progress, it would be much better to tax the fuel instead of the passengers. Virtually all other fuel is taxed, so it's strange that jet fuel is exempt. The problem with taxing passengers instead of fuel include: - it doesn't encourage improving the efficiency of planes - airlines can't fill their planes with really cheap seats, and empty seats…

Good points. Just another tax that will be passed straight down to the consumer. Wonder why no wage growth for 10+ years? Will do nothing for the enviroment. "Better not go on that holiday because of the enviroment "

The tax could be revenue neutral and achieve the same goal.

Also I don't see the connection with wage growth unless you are drawing some connection with employees of the tourism industry.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#522

Post by cheerlessbog »

sgjohnson wrote: post #364
gns24 wrote: post #192

The UK already taxes flights in a similar way. Whilst this does feel like progress, it would be much better to tax the fuel instead of the passengers. Virtually all other fuel is taxed, so it's strange that jet fuel is exempt. The problem with taxing passengers instead of fuel include: - it doesn't encourage improving the efficiency of planes - airlines can't fill their planes with really cheap seats, and empty seats…

> - airlines can't fill their planes with really cheap seats, and empty seats seem like a ridiculous waste This has never been true. There is no money in Economy. Almost never has been. Airlines make money off premium cabins and business travellers who book flights a couple of days in advance. Example LHR to LAX return. https://i.imgur.com/SCjndu8.png Fare: £50 One flexible First class return on the exact same flight…

> Fare: £50

Plus carrier surcharges.

They don't put economy seats in because they feel a duty to the traveling public. It's for money.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#523

Post by cheerlessbog »

vonmoltke wrote: post #297
rayiner wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can’t have nice things because people in the US live in an almost continuous band of mid-density urban agglomeration from Boston to DC, and it’s hard to reach most of the population through just a few stations. The most noticeable thing about European cities, to my American eyes, is how they just... end. Drive from Munich airport to the city, and it’s farmland in between. Drive from Dulles to DC, and it’s strip ma…

I noticed that on the Eurostar from Paris to London. Less than 30 minutes after leaving Gare du Nord it looked like I was in the Tennessee countryside. Except for the bend through Lille, it stayed that way until we entered the tunnel.

Urban planning...green belt laws.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#524

Post by briandear »

dewey wrote: post #167

Finally. It's really frustrating to see how heavily subsidized airlines, plane fuel and airports are and how big of a tax breaks they get when they come to a city. At the same time people are shamed for buying salad in a plastic bag when the big lever is somewhere completely different. Had the same thought yesterday when I saw: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1148317244893597696

I don’t pay expensive excise taxes, passenger service fees or “security” fees when I’ve taken a train. Yet air travel is taxed to hell and back. I get it, anti-air is the cause du jour, but until there is a train from SFO to Paris that wouldn’t take 20 days, it makes no sense to tax air travel so heavily. Air travel has had the biggest impact on connecting the world than almost any other tech aside from the internet. I would be tar and feathered among a certain crowd for saying this, but I love air travel and if it causes the temperature to rise .25 degrees over the next 50 years, so be it. Airplanes represent freedom. Taxing mobility is taxing freedom itself. Take a train from Marseille to Berlin and then one might appreciate how important air travel is. It’s trendy to oppose air travel but it’s like being opposed to ocean pollution and subsequently banning toddlers from peeing in the water at the beach.

If the entire world went to nuclear power tomorrow, the climate impact of air travel wouldn’t even be a rounding error. Power generation is the biggest contributor to pollution. Airplanes are barely a few percentage points and airplanes in France have such an infinitesimal influence on world climate that the whole exercise is a joke and smacks of self-congratulatory virtue signaling more than any actual solution. Remember the politics here: the cheminots in France have extraordinary power: they can shut down the country on a whim — anything that harms air travel directly benefits one of the most powerful unions in France.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#525

Post by TylerE »

cheerlessbog wrote: post #515
TylerE wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hardly. There are still DC-3's in commercial operation, and production of those ended in 1942. http://www.buffaloairways.com/ is one operator.

They have two Curtiss C-46 from 1945. Its interesting that its cheaper to continue to pay for the maintenance and fuel than lease something more modern.

Replacements don’t exist. Those old prop liners can operate off unimproved dirt strips, grass, even snow and ice - and off short runways too.

Jets don’t like that.

For back country missions the only thing maybe better than a DC-3 is a Basler... and that is a modernized DC-3 with reinforcements and turboprops for more power. They suck a lot more fuel than a plain DC3 though, which can be problematic as some of these fields they have to fly fuel in.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#526

Post by briandear »

dewey wrote: post #450
rsj_hn wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

International Air Travel is one of the most heavily taxed, if not the most heavily taxed, activity. It's not unusual for the taxes to exceed the ticket price. Here I just looked on kayak for a flight from SFO to Berlin. Here is the price breakdown: Ticket price USD 465.00 Taxes, Fees and charges USD 540.52 --------- International/Domestic Surcharge USD 350.00 APHIS User Fee USD 3.96 Immigration User Fee USD 7.00 Cust…

Take-off and landing account for a lot more pollution than a flight in cruising altitude on long trips. That's why we usually talk about the problematic domestic flights where trains are an alternative. There's not really a good alternative for long haul flights. Flights within Europe are not that heavily taxed, otherwise I wouldn't be able to fly Berlin - Brussels for 9 Euros.

9 euros isn’t the actual cost: it’s a loss leader for selling you other stuff for the flight. Also, that 9 euros doesn’t include taxes. Conversely, why are train tickets so expensive? Perhaps trains are overtaxed, or maybe less efficient?

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#527

Post by briandear »

rsj_hn wrote: post #452
dewey wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take-off and landing account for a lot more pollution than a flight in cruising altitude on long trips. That's why we usually talk about the problematic domestic flights where trains are an alternative. There's not really a good alternative for long haul flights. Flights within Europe are not that heavily taxed, otherwise I wouldn't be able to fly Berlin - Brussels for 9 Euros.

Yes, the huge taxes are generally for international flights, and I think part of the reason is that, as you say, there aren't a lot of options for those flights so they have a captive market and are thus better able to bear those taxes. If you start with punitive taxes on domestic flights in the EU, it will disproportionately hit the airline industry there. As with many things, the game with taxes is how to make the…

Taxes always fall on the consumer. Businesses don’t pay tax.

https://miltonfriedman.hoover.org/friedman_images/Collection...

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#528

Post by adrianN »

rayiner wrote: post #223
dewey wrote: post #167

Finally. It's really frustrating to see how heavily subsidized airlines, plane fuel and airports are and how big of a tax breaks they get when they come to a city. At the same time people are shamed for buying salad in a plastic bag when the big lever is somewhere completely different. Had the same thought yesterday when I saw: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1148317244893597696

Aviation accounts for just 2% of global carbon emissions: https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/1/11/1817711... . The plastics industry will burn through 14% of remaining carbon budget: https://www.desmogblog.com/2019/05/15/plastics-industry-clim...

Aviation is a small factor globally because almost nobody can afford to fly. For a typical westerner like me, a transatlantic flight per year roughly doubles my carbon footprint. Similarly, meat is a really big factor globally, because most people can afford to eat some meat, but for a westerner it makes up a much smaller (but still signifacent...) fraction of the pie because I use so much energy compared to a villager in India.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#529

Post by cosmodisk »

rsj_hn wrote: post #447
dewey wrote: post #167

Finally. It's really frustrating to see how heavily subsidized airlines, plane fuel and airports are and how big of a tax breaks they get when they come to a city. At the same time people are shamed for buying salad in a plastic bag when the big lever is somewhere completely different. Had the same thought yesterday when I saw: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1148317244893597696

International Air Travel is one of the most heavily taxed, if not the most heavily taxed, activity. It's not unusual for the taxes to exceed the ticket price. Here I just looked on kayak for a flight from SFO to Berlin. Here is the price breakdown: Ticket price USD 465.00 Taxes, Fees and charges USD 540.52 --------- International/Domestic Surcharge USD 350.00 APHIS User Fee USD 3.96 Immigration User Fee USD 7.00 Cust…

How come one pays arrival tax in the US even though the plane is heading to Germany?

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#530

Post by briandear »

keiferski wrote: post #48

I am actually surprised that short-distance flights aren't taxed more in Western Europe. The train infrastructure in France is world class and can get you from Paris (North-Central part of the country) to Marseille (Southeast), a distance of about 500 miles, in 3 hours. For Americans, this would be roughly equivalent to go from Boston to Washington D.C. (a trip that takes 7-10+ hours)

Marseille to Berlin though, not such a fun trip. Marseille to Frankfurt, multiple hours on trains, 1 hour on an airplane. Stuttgart to Barcelona? Better set aside an entire day. Biarritz to Geneva? The train system is good on certain destinations, but it’s impossible to connect everything like airplanes do.
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