France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall • Hacker News Board

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#191

Post by benj111 » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 4:55 PM UTC

laken wrote: post #173

mattnewton wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they expect people to fly less; similar to many other “sin” taxes like those on alcohol or tobacco.

I'd argue it's a bit of both -- it's a sin tax, and a pigovian tax. Sin taxes _are_ meant to cut down on use, while pigovian taxes aren't meant to cut down on use, rather, make up for external damage (such as to the environment). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax

Sin taxes are pigovian taxes?

And if you're contending they're different I assume one is supposed to cut down use.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#192

Post by gns24 » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 4:56 PM UTC

The UK already taxes flights in a similar way. Whilst this does feel like progress, it would be much better to tax the fuel instead of the passengers. Virtually all other fuel is taxed, so it's strange that jet fuel is exempt. The problem with taxing passengers instead of fuel include:

- it doesn't encourage improving the efficiency of planes

- airlines can't fill their planes with really cheap seats, and empty seats seem like a ridiculous waste

- freight isn't taxed

If you tax fuel too much there's a risk that planes will fly in with enough fuel to fly out again, but that could be fixed by legislation or (better) by a standardised fuel tax across a large area.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#193

Post by tluyben2 » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 4:56 PM UTC

Freak_NL wrote: post #160

hrktb wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of the tax is to recover the external cost of flying. Ideally there are alternatives to flying, but it's not a requirement: as long as flying has an environmental price, recovering it through tax is a decent logic. We can discuss the offered price, or how the tax could be structured, but I don't think the approach is unreasonable on its face.

Also, expect more European countries to follow. The Dutch government is intent on doing this too; either on their own, or (preferably) on a European scale.

If it is only NL and France, it will just bankrupt KLM/AirFrance. It needs to be EU wide imho.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#194

Post by magduf » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 4:56 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #177

dawhizkid wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Business class taxes are 3x-6x economy, so corporations/rich people are paying more. Flying as is is a luxury, economy class or not, and we shouldn't forget that.

Value added taxes sure, but this is a flat head tax, I don’t think biz class is going to be charged more than economy class.

It says right there in the article that business class will be charged more than economy.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#195

Post by cloakandswagger » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 4:57 PM UTC

We could virtually eliminate carbon emissions altogether if humans went back to living in caves and dying at the age of 30.

Resources were placed on this earth for the advancement of humankind. If someone wants to take it upon themselves to reduce their carbon footprint by not eating meat, living in a tent or staying in one place their entire lives then be my guest, just don't regress the whole of humanity by mandating it.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#196

Post by rayiner » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 4:57 PM UTC

dajohnson89 wrote: post #174

keiferski wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a perfect world it would be an hour between each stop: DC > Philadelphia > NYC > Boston

Let's add in the BWI airport too. And while we're at it add Baltimore too. But that's it!

Baltimore and BWI together have 1.7 million NEC boarding per year, only modestly less than BBY and BOS’s combined 2.1 million. Philly has over 3 million.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#197

Post by la_barba » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 4:57 PM UTC

buboard wrote: post #12

It's nice how you can rename any tax to an "eco tax" and suddenly everyone's delighted. Kudos for the social engineering. (there is absolutely no indication that this will somehow help the environment. I 'm heavily against flying , but i m also appalled by the level of gullibility here)

The funds have been earmarked for more eco-friendly transport services. It would be easy to go through the budget and see what happened. News articles can only give you so much context. It would consume an entire newspaper to give the back-story of every single news article. The reader is expected to do some work on their own. Also its not some 'random' tax. France has what they call an "ecological defense council" consisting of 150 randomly chosen citizens who debate such matters with domain experts. This idea has come out of such meetings.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#198

Post by vkou » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 4:57 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #179

Balero wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least for flights around Europe, taking the train. Flight in Europe are very cheap. It's actually cheaper to fly from London to Newcastle than it is to get the train, and it takes roughly the same time. For all flights the alternative is just not to go. Instead of flying to the Caribbean for a holiday, go some place closer and take the train, instead of flying for a business meeting, just call in. If it's worth th…

As much as I worry about global warming, this antagonizing view doesn't help "Paying for the damage" is this some kind of joke? What about all the other polluters? Shipping? Coal plants? Macron got the Yellow Jackets by hating on people that depend on cars to do their job, because wow, if you don't live in a place with public transport and already pay a substantial amount of tax in everything else and earn less than…

> "Paying for the damage" is this some kind of joke? What about all the other polluters? Shipping? Coal plants?

So, until we have a unified front for addressing climate change, that doesn't exclude a single source of pollution, we should sit on our hands?

The climate doesn't care where the pollution comes from. Any reduction is a win.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#199

Post by umeshunni » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

blondie9x wrote: post #145

safog wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Citation Needed]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/27/climate/airplane-pollutio... https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/1/11/1817711... emissions-travel

Random click bait articles are not citations.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#200

Post by gourou » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

dfilppi wrote: post #58

flixic wrote: post #31

As subsidies and taxes can be used to incentivize and disincentivize behavior, I’m happy about this. Flights have truly large ecologic costs, and flyers need to be aware of that, trying to minimize travel if not necessary. I’m particularly happy that it’s not a flat tax but based on ticket class.

Should be based on passenger mass

Can't tell if you're trolling. The A320 weights 42,600 kg. A passenger weights 100kg, let's say 150kg with luggages. That's 0.3% if the overall mass of the plane. Wouldn't make much of a difference if you have an extra 50kg.