Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture • Hacker News Board

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#521

Post by RandomInteger4 » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 6:05 AM UTC

sdrinf wrote: post #509

zapita wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t agree enough with your comment. The act of defining what and isn’t “political” - is itself a political act. It used to be unacceptably “political” in the majority of Anerican businesses to be against racial segregation. Now it’s the other way around. Whether you agree with that change or not, you can’t deny that the boundaries of what is or isn’t acceptable discourse at work have changed over time. When you’r…

This line of reasoning is implicitely making the false equalence of "everyone who isn't with me is, by default, against me". Going down this route, you are forcing me to take a position on issues I don't nearly feel having sufficient amount of data, or nuance; nor motivated to acquire them, because giving a shit is a rapidly depletable resource , and I have my own life, and my own stuff to take care of. Please do not…

Rather than speaking in generalities, can you specify particular political positions that you feel have been forced upon you?

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#522

Post by RandomInteger4 » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 6:12 AM UTC

_8j50 wrote: post #84

Worked across very liberal and very conservative places in tech. Neither is pleasant. In my opinion, the American self-image and self-worth largely characterized by subscription to a political ideology is the problem. What bothers me is not dress codes,free meals,open offices,etc... But the very idea that a company would display or promote politics in the work place. Why are companies promoting "pride",donating to tr…

Human resources deal with humans. Humans are not always so keen to leave their feelings at home, despite how capable you are of such things. Considering that there are a lot of opinionated people that exhibit displays of disgust and actions motivated by said disgust toward the LGBT community, then, in order to maintain a safe work place, human resources needs to address the issues of treating your LGBT coworkers with respect, much in the same way as they've had to do with minorities and female coworkers entering the work place back in the day (which sadly they still must address, because small minded bigots persist).

You may be perfectly fine, but one of your more conservative coworkers might be a talented bigot hiding their bigotry in the closet until such time that it might present itself, and human resources has to get ahead of that before it becomes an issue.

This isn't bringing politics into the work place. This is making sure hostile politics (i.e. bigotry) doesn't affect the workplace.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#523

Post by smsm42 » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 6:13 AM UTC

chrisco255 wrote: post #192

fatjokes wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. I completely disagree with the whole "bring your whole self to work". No! Bring your professional self to work. The counter-argument is that the causes relate to discrimination in the workforce. I.e., BLM needs to be supported because blacks are underrepresented in the American tech workforce. I disagree these need to be equivalent. It's possible for a company to promote hiring underrepresented minorities…

I don't agree with this "professional self" thing. I think you should bring your whole self to work...but sure, as with everything that should come in moderation. We all go to work to do a job, after all. But maybe the core problem is that we can't just agree to disagree, on some things. We have gotten to the point, as a society, that if you are right of center (in some circles), you're batshit alt-right crazy. And t…

> That's tolerance, and honestly, that's America. What the hell happened

Don't even go on Twitter, listen to mainstream media and see how much negativity is pumped out 24/7 in industrial quantities. It's an information analogue of First World War industrial warfare, and the effects are devastating.

Look at the comment here just below here - I am sure this guy who thinks half of the country is bigoted racists who needs to be crushed - is a nice person in real life who is a pleasure to be around. As long as he/she doesn't see you as an outgroup. And you probably would get along just nicely if you do not discuss things that reveal you as an outgroup. But if you and them bring your whole self to work, and turns out that person thinks you need to be crushed - would it be easy to get along, going forward?

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#524

Post by quanticle » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 6:17 AM UTC

euroclydon wrote: post #35

tptacek wrote: post #22

Good for them. The structural change needed in our industry is for labor (or, to use a term we're apparently more comfortable with, "talent") to reassert itself, and for tech giants to reconcile themselves to the fact that they're accountable not just to their shareholders but to their employees. I hope this gets nasty, and that these FB employees ultimately find recourse in the NLRA. We forget that this industry is…

The idea that a bunch of highly paid conservative software developers would unionize and get the NLRB involved is rich.

Who says that these software engineers have to be necessarily "conservative"? I'll be perfectly frank. I'm a liberal. I've voted Democratic as long as I've had the right to vote. But I look at what's happening to politics the West Coast with a mixture of disgust and horror. People are losing their jobs for saying the wrong things, donating to the wrong causes, or because they've offended the wrong people. And far from being concerned at the excesses of this politics, activists are gleeful, and are saying that these are just desserts for "oppressors".

It's possible to be a liberal and be less than 100% on board with defining everything in terms of intersectional oppression. It's possible to be a liberal, and still think the left has gone too far. It's possible to be a liberal and think that people should only be punished for actions, not beliefs. And I believe that the people standing up at Facebook are, by any standard outside of San Francisco, liberals.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#525

Post by jhanschoo » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 6:28 AM UTC

ibeckermayer wrote: post #516

aluren wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean any offense, but it has been my experience that people who can afford to "put politics aside", so to speak, are people from demographics who didn't have politics "happen" to them. When you are gay or trans and a significant chunk of people find your mere existence revolting, when you are black and a significant chunk of people believe you are innately less intelligent and more prone to violence, when you…

"When you are gay or trans and a significant chunk of people find your mere existence revolting, when you are black and a significant chunk of people believe you are innately less intelligent and more prone to violence, when you are a woman and a significant chunk of people believe you have no business starting a career or working in tech or people don't believe you when you claim to have been sexually assaulted, it'…

> Really, what percentage of people at Facebook do you think believe that stuff?

The very act of filtering against it at recruitment and when it occurs in the workplace /is/ "politics". And post-Weinstein scandal it's disingenuous to think that the workplace can't have such a toxic culture. Just the other day a Riot employee's post about Riot's uncomfortable "bro culture" was discussed on HN.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#526

Post by _iyig » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 6:29 AM UTC

GW150914 wrote: post #457

_iyig wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a great question. I would hope that if it ever came up in a work context, one hypothesis would not automatically be assumed without an open and honest and conversation.

It’s also probably the kind of thing you need to know a lot about before you start accusing a religion which represents a sizable fraction of the world, and which has many existing sects and interpretations, of being a causative agent in so many ills. An open and honest discussion is fine, but when one person has a strong position staked out without having done the requisite “homework” it’s not unrealistic that peopl…

I know a fair bit about Islam, but I'm always ready with an open mind to hear out different points of view, which is the ultimate topic of this submission. I'm also not even able to downvote, so take that as you will.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#527

Post by pas » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 6:55 AM UTC

jeffmcmahan wrote: post #275

askafriend wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your mistake is in thinking that you can separate out politics from "work" or any other concept. What you fail to realize is that everything is political. Everything. Politics isn't some concrete, easily identifiable thing you can point at. You can't separate out things into a "Politics" bucket and a "Not Politics" bucket. No, politics pervades every single human interaction. Politics is in everything and everything…

"[E]verything is inherently political." My preference for the scent of lavender over cinnamon -- political. I'm against the designated hitter rule. Political too. I think my dog should not get into the trash. It's all politics.

Cyinism is political too.

Of course not directly, but even the tinyiest things can and do become political. Hand gestures, clothing, music, choice of cars, choice of food, choice of words.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#528

Post by pas » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 6:58 AM UTC

Splines wrote: post #405

askafriend wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your mistake is in thinking that you can separate out politics from "work" or any other concept. What you fail to realize is that everything is political. Everything. Politics isn't some concrete, easily identifiable thing you can point at. You can't separate out things into a "Politics" bucket and a "Not Politics" bucket. No, politics pervades every single human interaction. Politics is in everything and everything…

What? No. Politics has no bearing on any number of technical discussions. Why should I consider liberal/conservative ideology when deciding if the CFoo should inherit from CBar.

OP obviously, not everything is directly about politics, but evrrything can and does become a political battleground.

Think about how Master/Slave vs Primay/Secondary is an issue. It's technical, but at the same time choice of nomenclature reflects about those who chose them.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#529

Post by zapita » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 7:06 AM UTC

sdrinf wrote: post #514

zapita wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In way of a reply, I will juxtapose two quotes from your post above. I think it preserves context, but please tell me if you think I left out something important. Quote 1: > This line of reasoning is implicitely making the false equalence of "everyone who isn't with me is, by default, against me" Quote 2: > Anyone who forces me using the reasoning above, is, by default, an enemy of mine

> please tell me if you think I left out something important. You did: the position of neutrality. The position of not taking a stance either way. The position of actually doing stuff, like, in the real world, orthogonal to that of politics. The area outside of politics. I observe, based on your comment 3 above, that you consider politics as all-encompassing. I reply: politics, as practiced currently, is a virus, whi…

I understand you personally don’t want to engage in what you consider politics at work. I don’t think anyone here has a problem with that. But you seem to feel like other people are forcing you to say or do political things.

I don’t understand who those people are, or how they force you to say or do political things. All I see are people who are saying things at work, like “everyone should march for lgbtq rights next weekend”, and those things annoy you because you don’t think it’s appropriate to discuss them at work. So, in this scenario, now you’re annoyed by unwanted speech... what happens next? Are you forced to go march, or forced to say outloud that you agree, under threat (explicit or implied) of retaliation? That might be illegal depending on where you work, but ianal. If that’s not what’s happening, then can you explain in more detail what harm is done to you, beyond being annoyed?

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#530

Post by rsj_hn » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 7:09 AM UTC

nepeckman wrote: post #225

philwelch wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not @AmericanChopper, but I can easily do that: 1. Believing in the near-absolute protection of free speech, even that which I find repugnant. 2. Acknowledging that sex differences are less than 100% culturally determined.

Believing in near-absolute protection of free speech is a lot easier when you're not the direct target of that "free speech." Not trying to assume your specific social location, but I know a lot of centrists who feel as you do, and they are white men. They might be repulsed by Nazi's who advocate ethnic cleansing, but I have to actually worry about what those people might do if they take power. I have a vested intere…

Fun Fact: A lot of people, when discussing Free Speech, bring up Nazis and how some views should be banned. In fact, Weimar Germany, although much more liberal than the republic under Bismarck, cracked down on hate speech and jailed many Nazis, which only led to them getting a more sympathetic hearing and a broader audience:

"Leading Nazis, including Joseph Goebbels, Theodor Fritsch, and Julius Streicher, were all prosecuted for anti-Semitic speech. And rather than deterring them, the many court cases served as effective pubic relations machinery for the Nazis, affording them a level of attention that they never would have received in a climate of a free and open debate.

In the decade from 1923 to 1933, the Nazi propaganda magazine Der Stürmer — of which Streicher was the executive publisher — was confiscated or had its editors taken to court no fewer than 36 times. The more charges Streicher faced, the more the admiration of his supporters grew. In fact, the courts became an important platform for Streicher’s campaign against the Jews."[1]

This pattern has been repeated in other countries as well. So, it's really a shame that people aren't looking back to history's lessons here. I understand that when you see something really offensive, your reaction is to ban it, but there are all sorts of unexpected things that happen when you do that, from the Barbara Streisand effect, to driving discussions underground, where they tend to become more extreme because they are only debated in an echo chamber with like minded individuals rather than brought out to the public square.

[1]https://www.cato.org/policy-report/mayjune-2015/war-free-exp...

I am obviously not talking about employer code of conduct. In my opinion, there should be no place for politics on the job site, but just be aware that you are not actually stomping out any offending beliefs by punishing those who express them -- at best you are driving those beliefs underground where they will go unchallenged, and at worst you are also creating a much wider audience of sympathetic ears, mostly drawn from a public who doesn't like to be told what to think.