Live data from Hacker News

The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

work.qz.com

521–530 of 1001 posts

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#521
post #17

I don't get it. The whole industry is complaining about not being able to hire developers, yet there seems to be some kind of competition who can come up with the most awkward hiring process. Requiring homework is a great way to deter the kind of people companies should be most interested in hiring: those who are not actively looking for a new job. I find this trend especially surprising considering that the U.S. has…

Very well summed up. Can confirm from the PoV of Berlin, Germany.

I've been on an interviewing spree in January and February, totaling around 20 companies. There were maybe 3 or 4 with realistic and respectful hiring process.

In the end I was left with just one company I actually liked.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#522
Reminds me of an "interview" I had last year with a secure email company that gets mentioned around here a lot. I was given a coding task to do. Think it took around about a full work day spread over a few days. Wrote some code. Submitted it. Got an email a few weeks later to say they'd hired somebody else. No conversation about the work I'd done or the position it's self whatsoever. My only communication with a human was basically somebody telling me they were going to be sending me some work.

They originally sent me the work over Skype. I don't generally log into it Skype but I did in order to accomodate the way they wanted to chat (send the work). A few weeks after they told me they'd hired somebody else I logged into Skype again to find a message asking how to access the work I'd done from several weeks earlier. Even though I'd provided a link to it earlier on in the conversation. To this day I don't know if anyone even looked at the work that I spent a full work day doing.

Perhaps they just didn't like the work that I did. I wouldn't blame them, I wasn't particularly proud of it. But I had a lot to say about the work, the problems I had and the things I would do differently if I were to start it again. I wasn't given the courtesy of expressing those thoughts though.

The funny thing is, they approached me about the position in the first place.

I wont be participating in any "interviews" structured anything like that ever again.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#523
post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

> Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. Agreed. The solution is to not work at a tech company, but instead work in a tech capacity at a real company. - No silly games (before or after hiring). - Better benefits (I'd rather have proper health coverage and a pension than a room full of toys and vaporware stock options). - Immensely more job security (Henry Ford didn't have an "exit strategy"). - Peo…

You're not just comparing a tech company to a non-tech company. You're comparing a startup to a non-tech company.

When you compare a non-tech company to a big tech company like Google, the benefits and comp arguments switch to the favor of the big tech company along with the respect and job security.

The only advantage to non-tech companies when comparing across big ones is the simpler interview.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#524
My dad was first concertmaster of the VSO, and my wife is a pianist. What's interesting is to look at the parallels between auditioning for a position in a prime orchestra and "auditioning" for the position of software engineer/developer.

When you get called to audition, you spend a ton of time preparing at in your "free time".

If you want to apply as a (senior) sw engineer, it makes sense to have an idea about the depth of knowledge and/or the engineering approach of the candidate.

Oldie but goodie: https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#525
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never see a shortage of people applying. I usually see a great shortage of people I want to hire. Mid-level position, asking for 5 years of related experience? 85% of the resumes have no related experience. Fresh out of school, that is. The virtual pile gets much shorter when minimal criteria are applied.

If you pay 'market rates,' expect the best applicants to be average.

Yes! If the best thing an employer can come up with to say about their compensation and benefits is that they are “competitive“ this is a huge red flag for any candidate who is (or believes they are) above average.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#526
post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most senior devs have a family, value work/life balance, and currently have another job. I don't expect them to take their work home past 5 while they're working with me, so why should I expect them to do that before I'm even paying them?

Almost too obvious solution: do an initial phone chat to filter qualified candidates into a small pool and then pay your final round of candidates a nice rate to complete a take home project. Bonus points if you can make it something that you can actually use at your company.

I don't see how paying them for their time fixes the work/life balance and already have another job combo?

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#527
post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps it's because you insist on testing their ability to live code on the spot as a performance piece, and misinterpreting that as testing their ability to code. If you're turning down someone who wrote space shuttle firmware, because they "can't do fizzbuzz", then you are administering a terrible test and getting a false negative. I have 20 years of industry experience. Everything on my resume is the truth. I've…

> If you're turning down someone who wrote space shuttle firmware, because they "can't do fizzbuzz", then you are administering a terrible test and getting a false negative. Or... large companies, particularly defense, excel at hiding mediocrity in their ranks, and it's easy for someone who produces no or negative work to be handed around rather than fired.

Or not

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m going to show some vulnerability… this happened to me this week. I’m probably like a lot of you here: professional software developer for 20 years, have shipped countless products in multiple languages / technologies. Work has appeared on tv and print media multiple times. Have generated millions and millions in cost savings and revenue for employers and clients. But I totally failed a technical screen. It’s been…

So a little more on the interview. I've got a laptop setup with eclipse, all rigged up with an integration test and filled out function signatures. I show the interviewee what to press to compile, and the subsequent failing tests. The code builds in it's initial state, but the tests fail. I also show them on the desktop that the original source is squirreled away in case they fat finger and erase everything (I've tot…

Todd, is that you? Sounds a lot like the process used by someone I worked with years ago.

It sounds to me like you’ve done some careful thinking about this, and it doesn’t sound unreasonable. One of my beefs really gets down to the interview process turning into a one-way grilling, dehumanizing the candidate into a “code monkey.” It sounds to me like you are trying really hard to evaluate their technical skills, but in a way that is collaborative.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to hate it, but have now performed enough interviews of supposedly senior devs with decades of experience. I've literally seen someone who did firmware for the space shuttle grind for 45 minutes on fizz buzz without making progress. Like, I'd they struggle for ten minutes or so, I take a step back and say "Ok, screw syntax, let's just vaguely talk about what needs to happen and mock up some pseudo code.". Even…

I always end up linking this piece in response to people like you, and here I am again. These folks have real data on lots of interviews, and have done some analysis on them: http://blog.interviewing.io/you-cant-fix-diversity-in-tech-w... The takeaway that's relevant to you is the section titled "Interview outcomes are kind of arbitrary". Specifically, things like: As you can see, roughly 25% of interviewees are cons…

Agreeing with and expanding on the interview studies... In most cases, the job that one ends up doing has very little to do with what you were tested for in an interview. Languages usually have some sort of approved/well know implementation of common data structures and algorithms. When you are asked to do some BFS/DFS/binary tree work in 45min or less you are unlikely to do that for the job. Someone has already provided an implementation. I venture, you are most likely to see it bought up in your next interview (whenever that is).

The question is how can you test for experience in writing code that is maintainable, readable, 'instrumentable' and contributes to a better system. How often does a candidate refer and defer to a decent third party library instead of feeling they need to (re)implement a well known data structure or algorithm? What have they done to help automate things so they can free themselves and their peers from minutae (aka how willing are they to put more work on machines?). What more do they think they can do. How well do they mentor or are ready to be mentored? Given a sample project, how would they go about running the technical side of things. If they focus on code, you should try to motivate them to expand to other areas (without telling them what they are). How cognizant are they of the ecosystem; or does their vision end at coding + unit test.

Lots of intangibles that cannot be measured with a github profile or a white board interview but probably contribute more to picking out better candidates.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#530
post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

You can tell if someone knows what they are doing by talking to them and having them walk you through what they have worked on. Also, in the United States, you could fire someone easily if they were really incompetent. Considering how much time and money people spend per candidate to interview, it's probably much cheaper and more efficient to hire faster and fire faster. Some companies are spending tens of thousands…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN