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Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

theguardian.com

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Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#521

Post by majewsky »

Para2016 wrote: post #237
majewsky wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a strawman. The opposite of "ignore completely that it's done elsewhere" is not "copy the other country's law letter by letter". From how it sounds to me, the grandparent argues for learning from other country's experiences and mistakes.

No it's not. Why are you using quotations when he didn't actually write that?

To group multiple words into a single token. Otherwise, the grammar in that sentence would be pretty broken.

Quotation marks are not only for quotes, you know...

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#522

Post by danmaz74 »

bonestamp2 wrote: post #511
danmaz74 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think like you, but I had to change my mind many years ago. There are opinions you don't agree with - and those shouldn't be downvoted - and there are blatant lies or idiocies at the "the World is flat" level, often put forward by trolls. Arguing with those is a total waste of time, and one reason why HN is so good is that they get downvoted to oblivion in no time.

I agree with you. I think "the world is flat" fits into my second sentence... do downvote things that don't contribute to the conversation.

ok :) Then again the problem is where you put the bar, if only there was an easy way...

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#523

Post by madaxe_again »

gozur88 wrote: post #252
madaxe_again wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got any statistics to back that up? I mean, it’s anecdotal, but how many school shootings have there been in the USA vs any non gun owning nation? Last one in the UK was Dunblane - and then they banned guns.

The school shootings are irrelevant statistically. They make the news because they're upsetting, but you're more likely to be beaten to death by someone's fists than shot with a long gun in the US. The vast majority of gun crime is done with handguns, and much of it is already illegal - i.e. felons in possession of guns or people carrying when or where they're not legally allowed to do so.

So where do those illegal guns come from? Santa? No. The legal gun market.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#524

Post by grasshopperpurp »

CompanionCuuube wrote: post #515
grasshopperpurp wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Which is why we have guns. If you try to take my gun by force, I will shoot you. So, just to be clear, if the government outlaws your guns, when they come for them, you're going out shooting?

Why is that the question? Gun control people always try to propose the hypothetical as a "voluntary buyback" rather than jackboots kicking doors down.

I don't know. Why don't you ask him why he said it?

>Yes, they may very well begin with outlawing guns. Which is why we have guns. If you try to take my gun by force, I will shoot you.

>This isn't what it takes. This would be the first formal step, but what it would take is for the State to pry them out of my hands, which would be met with resistance. Not just by me, but by the millions of gun-owners across the country - which is precisely why it won't happen.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#525

Post by ceejayoz »

gozur88 wrote: post #501
ceejayoz wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't appear to be a universally agreed upon distinction. https://financial-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Tax+Looph... > A deliberate or accidental provision in tax law that allows an individual or corporation to be exempt from some provision. Most loopholes are deliberate and are created to ensure that the law is not draconian, to please a lobbyist, or for some other reason.

Well, okay. In that case the word doesn't actually mean much beyond "this is the way the law is". What makes the "gun show loophole" rhetoric dishonest is it has nothing to do with gun shows.

Gun shows are a convenient way to find a bunch of private sellers to easily exploit the deliberately created hole in the law.

Sure, you can call it the "private sale loophole" if you want. Go for it. The agonizing over the semantic merits of the "gun show" part of the term is the same tactic as turning any gun argument into a debate over "clip vs. magazine" or "there's no such thing as an assault rifle" stuff - intentional missing of the point to derail a necessary conversation. Might even call that "dishonest rhetoric".

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#526

Post by irishsultan »

mattbrewsbytes wrote: post #386
saladeen wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are discussing crime. If crime wasn't commited by firearms, there would be no need to have legal framework regulating firearms. However, once firearms are heavily regulated, the violence commited through use of firearms doesn't magically go away. Violent criminals just switch to other methods. You can see similar things happening in UK recently, where they had a heavy campaign on banning knifes. This has resulted…

The original comment was: "The same willful ignorance of existing examples is also applied to ..." I was merely pointing out that haggy's comment ("I would love to see hard statistical evidence that less guns = less deaths...") was an exact example of this willful ignorance. The fact that we are discussing gun death/violence isn't really the point. The point is that there are policies/laws working in other areas of t…

> I would think survival chances when a criminal is attacking with a knife are much higher than if they had a gun.

The problem with this statement is that it is injecting an untested hypothesis in a discussion about the lack of facts when making policy.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#527

Post by SirZimzim »

viridian wrote: post #485
jonathanstrange wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My 2 cent (classical armchair analysis): It seems to me that some of these discussions are mostly dominated by irrationality. This is particularly recognizable in the US, but also occurs in Europe to a degree that varies from topic to topic and country to country. I believe there are two major factors at play. First, certain topics concern taboos that are still strong even in secularized societies. To these belong an…

>many US gun nuts really want to say is that the freedom of owning a gun outweighs the deaths by gun accidents and amok runs with guns, because freedom is such a high good and they like guns. Thanks for dismissing myself, many of my friends, and many people who share my opinions, lord jonathanstrange. Such arguments aren't in bad faith at all, and quite the contrary, promote reasonable discussion where people are hap…

So how are you contradicting his argument? It looks like you are keeping in line with his gun nut stereotype by openly admitting that you like to stand there to take a beating for your beliefs. Similar to how you exposed yourself now except I'm not referring to your position on gun policy, I simply find no value added baiting like this to be a waste.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#528

Post by nickik »

mikeash wrote: post #502
nickik wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because people don't follow the law when they don't think the government legal code is legit.

Meaning enacting gun control wouldn’t actually work? Why do gun advocates worry about it so much?

I don't care. I'm neither american nor interested in american gun culture. I'm just pointing out that it is simply false that citizens with guns can not have any impact.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#529

Post by mikeash »

nickik wrote: post #528
mikeash wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meaning enacting gun control wouldn’t actually work? Why do gun advocates worry about it so much?

I don't care. I'm neither american nor interested in american gun culture. I'm just pointing out that it is simply false that citizens with guns can not have any impact.

That isn't what I said. I said that the notion of gun rights as essential to resisting tyranny is self defeating. Guns themselves may be useful in this respect, but gun rights cannot be.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#530

Post by gozur88 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #525
gozur88 wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, okay. In that case the word doesn't actually mean much beyond "this is the way the law is". What makes the "gun show loophole" rhetoric dishonest is it has nothing to do with gun shows.

Gun shows are a convenient way to find a bunch of private sellers to easily exploit the deliberately created hole in the law. Sure, you can call it the "private sale loophole" if you want. Go for it. The agonizing over the semantic merits of the "gun show" part of the term is the same tactic as turning any gun argument into a debate over "clip vs. magazine" or "there's no such thing as an assault rifle" stuff - inten…

It's not an attempt to derail "a necessary conversation". There's no conversation, since neither side is going to budge. And it's not a semantic argument, either - you're using misleading rhetoric to misrepresent the law as it exists.
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