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To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

nytimes.com

521–530 of 694 posts

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#521
post #321

What strikes me the most when looking at many of the comments here is the blatant disregard for human suffering that extreme inequality and the resulting poverty cause. The current economical status quo is accepted as a given and all the harm it causes is dismissed with the shrug of a shoulder. "It can't be helped, the poor sods should have made better life choices to avoid ending up as janitor" is the attitude by wh…

Not just that, but it's incredibly shortsighted as well.

Human life has positive ROI, as evidenced by the fact that our species has done better in the world over time. The largest returns are highly unpredictable too - the majority of "origin" stories for the greatest contributors to moving our species forward have come from modest beginnings.

So disadvantaging large swaths of the population with poor access to quality education or healthcare biases the system against the masses, and as a result, reduces the productive potential of that population segment. A janitor today may not be the next Steve Jobs. But his kid might, if given access to a good education and not burdened by needing to accept a "safe" work choice to support his parents.

In addition, that janitor is likely putting a much larger portion of his wealth back into the economy directly by purchasing "things." And in a global economy that revolves around mass production, it would make sense that economic policies favoring the spending power of the masses would be a key factor in the pace of innovation and moving industry at large forward.

If only Wall Street can afford 4k TVs, they'll be watching a lot of upscaled 1080p content. It's not until the janitors, electricians, etc (i.e. the masses) can afford the sets that they'll see the majority of content switch over to 4k. (This is a knowingly superficial but illustrative example of a larger principle).

Even in my own case - I have a pre-existing medical condition. If it weren't for Obamacare, I wouldn't have been able to co-found my startup, which last year (first operational year) did $350k in sales, and this year looks like it may hit $700k. I'd have needed a job that provided good group health insurance, and our company simply wouldn't exist.

We like to talk in the entrepreneur community about the need to take risks to be successful. But too often the community turns a blind eye to the fact that if you cut away enough of the public safety nets, the only people that will be taking risks are the people that either (a) have a personal safety net already, or (b) have such poor judgement in risk assessment that they are destined to fail.

Social programs and policies aren't "entitlements" or things we should be doing from simply a moral standpoint - they are economic "growth" programs and make a great deal of sense if you look at the broader picture and with a perspective of 10, 50, 100 years instead of fiscal quarters.

Income inequality unchecked is going to destroy our national competitiveness the same way an executive cutting themselves a massive salary and underfunding corporate reinvestment is going to drive that company into the ground. We're cutting national reinvestment in order to further advantage the previously successful (several generations past in many cases), at the cost of the potentially future successful.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#522
post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes the exact opposite of a profound error is also a profound error. We certainly have established that socialism can be implemented in a catastrophic fashion; it's harder to prove a negative (that nothing resembling socialism can work.) I share your skepticism, though.

There are always theoreticians who don't really know what they're talking about, but do offer their utterly worthless advice. I'm not talking about you, or anybody else on this thread in particular. Without sufficient pushback, sooner or later these people screw things up for everybody, including themselves, and the poor are hit the hardest by the fallout 100% of the time. When it becomes obvious that they screwed th…

> What's bad is inequality in opportunity

Agreed.

> and there's less of that here than in most other countries.

I've seen evidence that the US is actually not doing that well on this scale, particularly measured against other wealthy democracies.

What's particularly painful for people is that there's less equality of opportunity here than there was 40 years ago. I do think we need to do something about this, though it's not entirely clear what.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#523
post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real problem though isn't wealth inequality, it's income inequality. I disagree. Wealth provides financial security to an even greater degree than high current income. Wealth provides the means to move your family to a place where they will be safe and thrive. Wealth provides a means to start the next generation with a leg up, financially, socially, and academically. High current income can go away next year fo…

> Wealth provides financial security to an even greater degree than high current income. Yes, but unless you're talking about a wealth tax in excess of 10%, this is not going to change. Someone with multiple millions of dollars in diversified investments will always be financially secure, unless we're considering drastic measures like a communist revolution. Regarding all the benefits of wealth you mentioned, note ho…

I don't seek to eliminate wealth; that's a terrible policy IMO. Moderating its growth and concentration only slightly is far less disruptive or fraught with unintended/unknowable consequences.

An annual wealth tax of 10% would wipe out most wealth concentrations within 50 years. I think such a level is absurdly too high, though.

Looking at Switzerland as an example, I think 0.25% to maybe as much as 1% range is far more reasonable (roughly in range with their wealth taxation today) with a per-household exemption of $1MM or thereabouts [to prevent nuisance calculations over $10 in taxes].

> note how these benefits only arise when the investor liquidates his investment

"essentially devoid of the concerns of financial catastrophe" is a tremendous benefit that confers to the wealth holder without need of spending the wealth.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#524
I think one of the most important issues raised by this article is toward the end:

> Ms. Ramos, the Apple janitor, lives down the road in San Jose. She pays $2,300 monthly for a two-bedroom apartment where she and her four children live. Before overtime and taxes, her $16.60 an hour works out to $34,520 a year. Her rent alone is $27,600 a year, leaving less than $600 a month once the rent is paid.

$2300 a month for a two-bedroom apartment. Service workers like janitors can barely afford to live here at all.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#525
post #321

What strikes me the most when looking at many of the comments here is the blatant disregard for human suffering that extreme inequality and the resulting poverty cause. The current economical status quo is accepted as a given and all the harm it causes is dismissed with the shrug of a shoulder. "It can't be helped, the poor sods should have made better life choices to avoid ending up as janitor" is the attitude by wh…

I agree and it disgusts me. The "fuck you I got mine" attitude is a) sociopathic and b) illogical. It's illogical because someone else getting a leg up doesn't mean you'll be losing ground (the pie is mostly imaginary and we can continue growing it for a long time) and additionally, a society with greater inequality is going to hurt everyone. There's only so long this can go on for. How long will your gated community hold back the rioting horde?

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#526
post #321

What strikes me the most when looking at many of the comments here is the blatant disregard for human suffering that extreme inequality and the resulting poverty cause. The current economical status quo is accepted as a given and all the harm it causes is dismissed with the shrug of a shoulder. "It can't be helped, the poor sods should have made better life choices to avoid ending up as janitor" is the attitude by wh…

> as if requiring everyone to be a member of the educated elite just to be able earn a decent living

The sad reality is that this is not actually possible. This kind of inequality is a constant and cannot be changed. There is a segment of society that cannot pull themselves up by their bootstraps so to speak, and the way a society treats and cares for these people is the true yardstick of compassion and fairness.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#527
post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are always theoreticians who don't really know what they're talking about, but do offer their utterly worthless advice. I'm not talking about you, or anybody else on this thread in particular. Without sufficient pushback, sooner or later these people screw things up for everybody, including themselves, and the poor are hit the hardest by the fallout 100% of the time. When it becomes obvious that they screwed th…

> What's bad is inequality in opportunity Agreed. > and there's less of that here than in most other countries. I've seen evidence that the US is actually not doing that well on this scale, particularly measured against other wealthy democracies. What's particularly painful for people is that there's less equality of opportunity here than there was 40 years ago. I do think we need to do something about this, though i…

Priority one: Federalize educational funding so that primary schools are all decently funded. Other countries do this as a matter of course. Obama didn't lift a finger, so far as I know, to get equal dollars to black and predominantly black classrooms in poor districts.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#528
post #321

What strikes me the most when looking at many of the comments here is the blatant disregard for human suffering that extreme inequality and the resulting poverty cause. The current economical status quo is accepted as a given and all the harm it causes is dismissed with the shrug of a shoulder. "It can't be helped, the poor sods should have made better life choices to avoid ending up as janitor" is the attitude by wh…

It's not surprising that those who have bought into Rand and her ego stroking 'superman' ideology are sociopaths. These highly individualist supermen don't need society or anyone else for their success. They stand alone. Celebrating themselves while seeing others suffer and blaming them for their suffering is simply the natural order of things. Empathy is completely absent in this impoverished binary world view of su…

I'm a big fan of Rand and truly believe that pure altruism is a fundimentally unsustainable and fruitless endeavor (considering the definition is putting in more than you get out, that's kind of obvious).

Luckily, most of the things we as a society value as being a "good" thing to do are in fact really good things to do as an individual looking out for one's own self interest.

Have you or I benefited greatly from the work of Jobs & Woz, Gates, Einstein, Pasteur, etc? I'd say yes.

Would it stand to reason that we would benefit significantly from future contributions from similar people?

Well, if that is true, we should probably support social programs like good access to education and healthcare, so that those potential innovators have fewer obstacles in their path.

Does a society that revolves around mass production tend to innovate faster when the masses have stronger spending power? Makes sense - so perhaps fiscal policies that mitigate income inequality would be wise - from an innovation standpoint (completely ignoring the moral case).

Yes, there are dumb people out there who read Rand and overlooked (a) that she was reacting to having lived through the awful aftermath of the Russian revolution and (b) was writing fiction in dystopian universes (before she got a bit too cray cray and just started writing philosophy). You can read Orwell and not think there's actually talking animals. And a lot of the proclaimed Randians happen to forget that in her most nuanced work, Atlas Shrugged, the populist movement was the lesser villain to the larger villian of crony capitalism, lobbying, and government intervention on behalf of those interests.

It's actually quite refreshing to look at socialist policies from a perspective of selfishness, because if you ask yourself the question of "will these policies benefit me even if I'm not a direct beneficiary?" - the amazing thing is that the answer is"yes" given a long and broad perspective. We shouldn't as a society make the case for these policies because of moral arguments, but can and should make the case on the basis of their impact on economic growth and the rate of progress.

Most investors prefer reinvestment to dividends for long term holdings. And that's exactly what social programs, and policies addressing income inequality, are. They are a reinvestment into the country instead of a dividend (aka tax cut) paid out annually. Let's make that case using the language and reasoning they already understand.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#529
post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you kill the elite if they have advanced weaponry and can monitor all communications? What happens if they have no use for servants or consumers by virtue of having automated all their production needs? This scenario may sound extreme but it's certainly not implausible.

This is why Trump is arming police force with military grade weapons--to protect the elite should the lower classes rise up.... That and he's using racism to divide and conquer us--make us hate and fight ourselves poor/middle class vs poor/middleclass -- if we're too busy infighting we'll never join forces and rise up against the elites...

the police force is part of the proletariat. Those guns aren't going to be pointing the direction Trump wants for too long.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That said, the banks + federal oversight encourage money to be created out of thin air, which makes it easy to spend money, and makes it impossible to incentivize deferred consumption. So, everyone spends money, no limits on it, and we all get to ride the waves between economic booms and economic crashes. Honest question -- how does the Austrian school reconcile the slow growth of the US economy during and immediatel…

I'm sure austrian school purist would tell you that a storm is coming quickly to correct that insanity, if it was one.

Thus Apple hoards cash because it believes the bubble will burst? Is that the Austrian explanation for Apple's behavior?

(Still an honest question. I've never understood this about the Austrian school.)

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