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To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

nytimes.com

461–470 of 694 posts

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#461
post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real problem though isn't wealth inequality, it's income inequality. If someone has a billion dollars that's invested in various stocks, and never tries to withdraw that money, leave him alone. The day he decides to sell his investments and start buying private jets, that's the time to tax him on his income. The argument against a wealth tax, is that it penalizes savers, and rewards spenders. Which is not what we…

Could you please expand on why its necessarily better for the average Joe to invest money (without knowing beforehand whats gonna be a "productive enterprise" of course) instead of fuelling the economy directly by buying goods? (honest question)

Not OP, but I have an idea of what they're getting at.

Another word for savings is "deferred consumption". If I earned 1000 dollars this month, and spent 700, I have 300 in savings, or, put another way, I deferred consuming 300 of those dollars.

Now, 300 in a checking account doesn't do anyone any good but me, but if I took half of that money and invested it w/the bank at a 7%/year interest rate, I'd be investing $150/month, and once I started getting that return back, I'd be getting $160.50 back.

What that does for the bank is gives it capitol to loan out to businesses.

If someone went to the bank and got a loan of $150, with a promise of paying it back at 9% in a year, they'd borrow that $150, pay the bank back $163.50 in a year, and the bank would pay me, the original creator of those funds, $160.50. They'd get a profit of $3.00, which is the difference between loaning that money out at 9%, and paying me back at 7%.

If the bank couldn't create money out of thin air, and doesn't fraudulently loan out customer's deposits, the only way to obtain a loan would be if someone else deferred consumption.

Obviously, banks can create money out of thin air (by loaning out funds on deposit), and when they do so, they don't have to give the money back with any interest, so they do. They can loan out $150 at 5% (cheaper than anyone else, perhaps!) and they can keep all of the profit, or $7.50. (more than twice the earlier profit of a non-fraudulent loan.)

I suspect OP subscribes to a more "savings-based economic growth" theory, in contrast to a "consumption-based economic growth" theory.

I obviously am an advocate of the savings-based approach vs. consumption-based approach.

That said, the banks + federal oversight encourage money to be created out of thin air, which makes it easy to spend money, and makes it impossible to incentivize deferred consumption. So, everyone spends money, no limits on it, and we all get to ride the waves between economic booms and economic crashes.

The crash is an inevitable response to the boom, and any policy that wants to have booms without crashes is a logical fallacy.

I hope this helps a bit! I can gather some more sources if you're curious, but the basic gist is in accordance to the Austrian school of economics. Read more on that, and you'll encounter much better explanations than mine!

:wave:

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is your implication that the US is socialist simply for having an income tax? If not, you're going to have to quit the snide remarks and actually explain your opinion...

No, it is the way it is set. It is a very long discussion, but the extremely simplified version should be: if there is a cost to run the state, split the cost equally to the voting citizens and ask them to pay. The state is not the owner (full or share) of the citizen to raise a percentage of the income as tax, one vote means one tax (in dollars) - that is equal rights and equal burden. The "rich people can afford to…

There are a lot of ways of configuring tax, democracy and economy.

What you are writing here is an assertion, not an argument. You don't present evidence, or hint at why what you propose would be a good idea.

Can you explain what good effects the system you are proposing would have?

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the assumption that the State is the best ward for your money. Do you fully trust the State to be willing and able to stamp out inequality?

Why must we 'fully' trust the state? We just have to trust it more than the markets.

States have killed many more people than markets have.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#464
post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a multimillionaire. Came here with a negative net worth, by way of skilled immigration. Born and raised in the USSR. Don't bother trying to convince me about the virtues of socialism. Unlike you, I actually lived it.

Sometimes the exact opposite of a profound error is also a profound error. We certainly have established that socialism can be implemented in a catastrophic fashion; it's harder to prove a negative (that nothing resembling socialism can work.) I share your skepticism, though.

There are always theoreticians who don't really know what they're talking about, but do offer their utterly worthless advice. I'm not talking about you, or anybody else on this thread in particular. Without sufficient pushback, sooner or later these people screw things up for everybody, including themselves, and the poor are hit the hardest by the fallout 100% of the time. When it becomes obvious that they screwed things up, you get people like me telling you just how fucked things can get if you head in that direction, de facto, because we've been there. When you don't have people like me, you head in that direction, because let's face it, most people think that if we just take all the wealth and spread it evenly everyone will be better off. That's not how the world works, however, but it takes decades to go through these cycles to find out for yourself. Greed is good, inequality in outcomes is good. What's bad is inequality in opportunity, and there's less of that here than in most other countries. If you were just born here, you already have the golden ticket. The trick is to not wipe your butt with it.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#465
post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a multimillionaire. Came here with a negative net worth, by way of skilled immigration. Born and raised in the USSR. Don't bother trying to convince me about the virtues of socialism. Unlike you, I actually lived it.

Socialism is a bit of an over-loaded word. Most people use it to speak about market economies in western Europe with heavily funded public health, wellness, and education programs which intend to promote democratic constitutional goals such as equal opportunity for citizens. Planned economies such as the USSR clearly impinge on human liberty, tend to be undemocratic, and are usually very inefficient, and I think almo…

>Planned economies such as the USSR clearly impinge on human liberty, tend to be undemocratic, and are usually very inefficient

I disagree that they impinge on human freedom, at least I don't think they do compared to capitalist economy. I see no reason why they should be undemocratic. And you'll find nobody in favour of a 5 year plan as the USSR had; there have been massive advances in economic planning methods, as elaborated by Cockshott et al.

I love the irony of saying it is "inefficient" especially when we compare it to how currently under capitalism firms compete by doing the same research, repeating the same mistakes, often extremely inefficiently, in the name of profit. This is one of the most inefficient things I have heard of.

The USSR planning model isn't a good alternative. But I think that some economic planning model, whatever it may be, should not be ruled out, especially as it can feature as part of lower-stage Communism.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#466
post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are a lot of posters here who seem to be border line sociopaths, so maybe another thing they should conaider is that when inequality increases to much the proletariat will tend to kill the elite. nobody wins if we get there and there are signs we are headed there.

How do you kill the elite if they have advanced weaponry and can monitor all communications? What happens if they have no use for servants or consumers by virtue of having automated all their production needs? This scenario may sound extreme but it's certainly not implausible.

This reminds me of a passage in a web serial I read the other day [0]:

“Because, if you’re honest with yourself, if you step away and look at what this world is and what it’s becoming… we’re really not far from a reality where everyone is condemned to the pits. Everyone is lost. Maybe not this generation. Maybe not the next. But surely, somehow, if you cherish anyone, anything, any legacy at all, you can’t let them win, destroy it all, and erect some… mockery in its place. Rewritten history, modified, subjugated, and broken people.”

[0] https://twigserial.wordpress.com/2017/08/26/crown-of-thorns-...

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statement "not everyone can handle social or intellectual labor" is a larger sociological problem. If we insist that the only people allowed to participate in the labor market are college educated white guys, maybe; I don't see that statusquo continuing. The hoops some members of this forum will jump through to convince themselves that building CRUD apps is some zenith of intellectual might just continues to ast…

Seems a strange complaint when janitorial positions (which aren’t often held by college educated white guys) are under discussion. Presuming we want people to have good lives who aren’t able or inclined to do jobs requiring much higher intellectual demands than janitorial ones (and I certainly do want us to presume that!), we need to figure out how to in the short term allow people doing those jobs to have good lives…

I mean that's the point. The difference between someone that ends up as a janitor and someone that ends up as a software engineer has a lot more to do with their parent's money and the color of their skin than any variation in intelligence. Pretending differently just leads you to the comforting arms of the "just world fallacy".

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What strikes me the most when looking at many of the comments here is the blatant disregard for human suffering that extreme inequality and the resulting poverty cause. Apologies to pick on you without addressing your main point, but this sentence is an example of an error I see a lot yet I rarely see addressed. Specifically, you're claiming a chain of causation where by inequality causes poverty. But in fact the r…

If poverty is a relative measure - and as a child who grew up poor, I can assure you that the lived perception of poverty is relative, not absolute - then large inequality implies substantial poverty, for usual income distributions. This is relating to your parenthetical, not your quibble with causation, of course. But inequality of income is different to inequality of wealth, and there can be a causal link there.

I think we experience it as a relative measure, because for most of us, it generally is.

However, take Monaco. There appears to be significant wealth and income disparity among residents of Monaco and yet nothing that we would reasonably identify as poverty.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you can sell PayPal one day for $200 million and have the capital to build a space ship company and the first viable fully electric car manufacturer.

Sadly Musk is an outlier. Very few entrepreneurs have had his impact on the world.

What impact?

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#470

The underlying cause of this whole issue is the changes in tax policy instated in the Tax Reform Act of 1986, previously income was taxed at higher rates unless deductions were utilized which forced those earnings back into the economy creating jobs funding research, etc.. As it's become easier to retain more earnings there's little incentive not to optimize an entire corporation solely with the purpose of generating…

The underlying cause of this whole issue is the changes in tax policy instated in the Tax Reform Act of 1986, previously income was taxed at higher rates unless deductions were utilized which forced those earnings back into the economy creating jobs funding research, etc.

But isn't that just a reflection (and after-effect) of a more fundamental, underlying cause -- that is, the extent to which low- (and medium-) skill labor itself has become devalued, in recent decades -- along with, of course, the very class of persons taking those jobs? Along with a host of other changes in attitudes (sharply) favoring the welfare of the high-skilled -- and above all, of the rentiers -- over the welfare of those who actually do the bulk of the work that keeps our civilization actually running?

Which is presumably what motivated the actual votes on the particular pieces of legislation you (quite validly) cite.

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