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Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

reuters.com

511–520 of 582 posts

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a member of the EU, how do you keep people from other EU countries from just moving to Denmark and claiming benefits?

Simply crossing borders doesn't give you citizenship.

Ok Denmark, but overall the issue is valid. For example Finland has residency-based welfare aka no citizenship needed. Just read a headline last week claiming that Finland pays more welfare to Estonians than Estonia itself. Meaning Estonian citizens who live in Finland. Most came here to work but are now unemployed. You can't come here for welfare, but if you lose your livelihood soon after you are safe.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#512
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here here. I've travelled through Switzerland, and can confirm that it's really expensive compared to many other countries. I made the mistake once of planning to stay overnight in Switzerland. That was expensive. About €40 to stay in a rural hostel.

I believe the phrase is "hear, hear".

Both of them are phrases. Everyone understands the, strictly speaking, incorrect one. It's nice to know the origins of the phrase, but when more people use the 'incorrect' variant than the 'correct' one, it becomes 'correct'; that's the nature of language.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#513
post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

> One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income. I believe this would not be a problem in the long run for the following reasons: - A lot of boring low-pay work is unnecessary (dealing with the endless paper trail of over-complicated bureaucracies, lots of things that companies do, like telemarketing, just because it's so cheap, etc. etc…

I believe similar points are made in Robert Tressell's 'The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists', in which he debunks a lot of the negativity surrounding socialism and makes very powerful arguments in favour of it. A wonderful book.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#514
post #463

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What problems does a $1 trillion military solve that a $200 billion military doesn't. I'd hazard a guess that a $200 billion military generates significant funding cuts above and beyond because it's a bit difficult to get into unilateral quagmires at that funding level.

The US military budget is probably not too high for the existing requirements of the US. The US is obligated, by treaty and policy, to provide mutual defense to most of the world. The US military has additional moral obligations to minimize civilian casualties, as well as political obligations to minimize both time expenditure and friendly casualties. These requirements are historically unprecedented and contributes…

You are just lifting the political premise of Heinlien's Starship Troopers. I am not sure that this would make a society less likely to go to war, because the society itself will become more obsessed with the military and is more likely to look for things that look great in military terms, like conquests.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#515
post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you may get fine for taking a shower late in the evening erhm... no. while there might be house rules set by the lessor which prevents certain things that might disturb other inhabitants, it's not a law.

> certain things that might disturb other inhabitants isn't a loud shower that certain thing?

you might receive notice for your apartment for doing too much of those things, but certainly no fine for showering.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The incentive to work would finally be that work needs to be done.

You all are so idealistic. :) These threads on HN are like non-stop Star Trek post scarcity quixotic affair.

Do you mean to argue with what I'm saying or are you just being flippant in lack of a better approach?

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#517
post #135

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Just to put things in perspective (I'm swiss), 2500CHF is a really low salary in Switzerland. There is another initiative asking for a minimum wage of 4000CHF per month. The median swiss salary is close to 6000CHF[1]. The administration says the poverty line is around 2200CHF per month for someone living alone [2]. You can't really just convert to $ and say it's a lot of money. A lot of basic stuff like food, transpo…

Live near the border with France. Buy everything there in EUR. Border is nonexistent for all practical purposes so this is very doable.

The thing is because of people working in Swiss but living in France, housing in the part of France close to Swiss (Haute-Savoie) is amongst the most expensive. It's almost the level of Paris.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#518
post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not Steve Jobs nor Bill Gates have been to military service, this I think allowed them to develop their companies, what will happen in case of mandatory service?

I don't promote compulsory military service, but what would prevent someone from being an entrepreneur after finishing their military service? Consider that many developed nations have compulsory military service (Finland, Norway, South Korea, Singapore, Israel, Switzerland, etc.), and yet people still manage to start new companies there.

On the other hand, Poland recently abandoned it's compulsory military service.

If the service is obligatory for all, it means you're taking a million of people at the peak of their intellectual capabilities, and force them to do mundane tasks for half a year, or a year. Also, some people will fake their medical records to get out of this.

If it's not obligatory for students (like it was in Poland), people will find some bullshit universities to skip the service. And the vision of being force to essentially be imprisoned for a year if you get thrown out of university, will not be fun for anyone. This is how it looked like in Poland.

But - if I'm not mistaken - what made Poland change the law were those factors: - it's costly. you need to mantain 1% of population fed, clothed and so on for a year or so. plus you need to maintain a huge infrastructure for this. that alone would cost U.S. how much - $15k * 4M = 60 billion? a year? And that doesn't include the fact that those same people would otherwise bring in much more profit to the society - say $40k/year on average. So the hidden cost here goes another 160 billion of a hidden cost in case of U.S. - it's inefficient. the wars are not won by who has more manpower anymore. they are won by the ones who have better technology, intelligence and logistics. So that 4 million army would be blown away by 100 thousand army of better trained and better equipped soldiers.

Finally - look at the countries you mentioned. They aren't exactly known for their entrepreneurial spirit, are they?

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When did 1/3 of Italian or Asian immigrant students support killing in the name of Catholicism or Buddhism?

...when they were asked misleading questions by partisan think tanks?

That dog isn't gonna hunt. You have no evidence that Italian and Asian immigrants espoused violence the way many Muslim immigrants do.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused, are you accusing the idea that multiculturalism doesn't work as being racist? There is ample evidence that it in fact doesn't work: that an underclass is inevitable and that status applied to an entire culture is immensely damaging.

The idea that there is a "poor, uneducated, unacculturate" immigrant underclass in the UK is a racist lie. Recently arrived immigrants often find themselves at a disadvantage, but 2nd & 3rd generation communities are often wealthier, and better educated than "natives". Five or ten years ago, I would have told you that this kind of politicised bigotry was entirely outside the British mainstream... only practised by a…

That's just not true. http://poverty.org.uk/06/index.shtml

Look at the low income rates for Pakistanis and Bengalis. Immigration of those people to the UK is not recent.

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