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Keep Android Open

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Re: Keep Android Open

#511

Post by aiauthoritydev »

sulam wrote: post #510
greatgib wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even restricting the mitigation to "students and hobbyists" is bad. I should have the right to have parents, friends or anyone use a "free" store that is not under control of Google if the user and app developer wish so. But also, somehow there should be something done to avoid the monopoly forcing to use the Google services. Like major institutions like bank, gov and co being forced to provide alternatives like a we…

I'm far from a Google apologist, but at the end of the day don't they have the right to write software however they want it? You have the right to build things the way you want to, fork Android, etc etc. If you're trying to say you have the right to tell Google what the code their employees write can do, well, I don't really agree with that. Sounds coercive, honestly. I wouldn't want them to do that to you and I don'…

It is little surprising a lot of smart people somehow miss this simple logic.

Android is massive and extremely popular and I know several people who have been scammed already. It is important that Google makes this harder for scammers.

Google is not doing this to harm developers but to protect their users.

Re: Keep Android Open

#512

Post by tux1968 »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #276
tux1968 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I don't think you have the inerhent right to install any apk you desire, if their OS is designed to prohibit it. You should be free to try to alter their OS any way you want, but they should not have to make it easy. And the argument is the same lower down the stack. You shouldn't be able to tell someone how to design their firmware. The only problem is where the law prohibits us from trying to undo these restric…

> No, I don't think you have the inerhent right to install any apk you desire, if their OS is designed to prohibit it. You should be free to try to alter their OS any way you want, but they should not have to make it easy. > And the argument is the same lower down the stack. You shouldn't be able to tell someone how to design their firmware. Earlier, you claimed, > They should be able to install any software they wan…

I want maximum freedom, for everyone. That includes developers. We should be free to produce the software as we see fit. If that means we think that our users are best served by having devices that are locked down against scammers etc, then we should be free to produce locked down devices like that.

And as users we should be free to buy only devices that respect maximum capabilities and customization.

There is a tension between these goals, and it's difficult to resolve, so that everyone gets most of what they want. Google seems to be doing the right thing mostly though. Providing both the locked down device, and making provisions for people who want the non-standard option too.

Anyone who thinks they can do better, should enter the market and give us something better. I'd like more options for completely open and hackable phones.

Re: Keep Android Open

#513

Post by cwillu »

mistercheph wrote: post #374
cwillu wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't though, because there's a ecosystem of banking/insurance/whatever apps that have bought into the android/iphone lockdown mindsete that people will simply be locked out of. Open alternatives can grow when there is a viable means of slow growth, and cutting off the oxygen to such things is the implicit intent.

LMFAO what are you doing on your banking app all the time

It only has to be something I need to be able to do but can't once a month to be a dealbreaker.

Re: Keep Android Open

#514

Post by tux1968 »

1718627440 wrote: post #277
tux1968 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that is a real problem. But it doesn't justify arguing uncritically or unrealistically in other areas. I think people should be free to do anything they want with their own devices. They should be able to install any software they want. That's very different than demanding someone make their software exactly how you desire. ie. You should be able to install your own operating system, you don't get to tell them h…

> You should be able to install your own operating system So you draw the line between the bootloader and the OS. Other people draw the line between the OS and applications. Most (nearly all) people can't write either, so for them it is just part of the device. > you don't get to tell them how theirs should operate. I paid for it, and I allow it to be legal in the jurisdiction I (partly) control. So it is not only th…

Yes, and it should be 100% legal for you to hack it. Get the soldering iron out, and the debugger, and alter it to your hearts content. You bought it, you own it. But the supplier should be under no obligation to make any of that easy for you.

Just like they shouldn't be required to offer it in pink if that's your favorite color. It's up to you to paint it yourself. And if you want to load random apk's, you'll have to do whatever it takes to figure that out too, up to creating your own hardware and software.

Re: Keep Android Open

#515

Post by foo12bar »

aiauthoritydev wrote: post #511
sulam wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm far from a Google apologist, but at the end of the day don't they have the right to write software however they want it? You have the right to build things the way you want to, fork Android, etc etc. If you're trying to say you have the right to tell Google what the code their employees write can do, well, I don't really agree with that. Sounds coercive, honestly. I wouldn't want them to do that to you and I don'…

It is little surprising a lot of smart people somehow miss this simple logic. Android is massive and extremely popular and I know several people who have been scammed already. It is important that Google makes this harder for scammers. Google is not doing this to harm developers but to protect their users.

This is "think of the children/grandma" logic. There is a different between maintaining a company store where everything is verified, and forcing everyone to use it.

Google shouldn't be able to hold a vertical monopoly, on what apps can run, what os's are allowed and what hardware can be used on devices that run Android, rest solely on this weak excuse that someone might harm grandma.

Oh, and of course, if grandma gets scammed by a app in the Google store, Google isn't in any way held responsible. Such garbage, two-faced bs.

Re: Keep Android Open

#516

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

aiauthoritydev wrote: post #511
sulam wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm far from a Google apologist, but at the end of the day don't they have the right to write software however they want it? You have the right to build things the way you want to, fork Android, etc etc. If you're trying to say you have the right to tell Google what the code their employees write can do, well, I don't really agree with that. Sounds coercive, honestly. I wouldn't want them to do that to you and I don'…

It is little surprising a lot of smart people somehow miss this simple logic. Android is massive and extremely popular and I know several people who have been scammed already. It is important that Google makes this harder for scammers. Google is not doing this to harm developers but to protect their users.

> It is little surprising a lot of smart people somehow miss this simple logic.

Is it that people "somehow miss this simple logic", or is it that they weigh security and freedom differently than you?

Re: Keep Android Open

#517

Post by crvdgc »

cwillu wrote: post #299
arcanemachiner wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this finally pushes adoption of truly open Linux phones, then this will end up being a good thing, and the greatest favor that Google could do for the open source community. Tragically, Linux phones have languished and are in an absolute state these days, but a lot of the building blocks are in place if user adoption occurs en masse. (Shout out to the lunatics who have kept this dream alive during these dark years…

It won't though, because there's a ecosystem of banking/insurance/whatever apps that have bought into the android/iphone lockdown mindsete that people will simply be locked out of. Open alternatives can grow when there is a viable means of slow growth, and cutting off the oxygen to such things is the implicit intent.

In theory, it's possible to have a third party (other than Google or Apple) to provide attestation on third party hardware.

You can have a separate core and kernel to run such code. They don't have to be powerful, but they'll need to be small enough to be verified by the said provider. For most of the code that doesn't need attestation, they can be executed on normal hardware.

The provider also has to convince the regulator or banks to trust them. However, if that's solved, the user should feel no difference between pure Android and alternative platform plus attestation.

Re: Keep Android Open

#519

Post by krzyk »

sulam wrote: post #510
greatgib wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even restricting the mitigation to "students and hobbyists" is bad. I should have the right to have parents, friends or anyone use a "free" store that is not under control of Google if the user and app developer wish so. But also, somehow there should be something done to avoid the monopoly forcing to use the Google services. Like major institutions like bank, gov and co being forced to provide alternatives like a we…

I'm far from a Google apologist, but at the end of the day don't they have the right to write software however they want it? You have the right to build things the way you want to, fork Android, etc etc. If you're trying to say you have the right to tell Google what the code their employees write can do, well, I don't really agree with that. Sounds coercive, honestly. I wouldn't want them to do that to you and I don'…

Yes they do, unless it limits my right tondo whatever I want we software I bought.

And also monopoly.

This is exactly the thing for which Apple gets bashing. Closed garden.

Re: Keep Android Open

#520

Post by microtonal »

dotancohen wrote: post #491
troyvit wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I do this for family I buy a used pixel. Then no dollar goes directly back to Google.

By ensuring that Pixels have significant resale value, you are encouraging consumers to buy Pixel phones.

Still, you are stopping the extraction of analytics, which probably bring Google the much more revenue over the longer term, and it is not possible to disable on regular Android phones.

Remember that on every certified Google Android phone, Google Play Services runs with system-level privileges. On GrapheneOS, it is sandboxed like pretty much any other app (if you choose to install Play Services) and you can make it 'blind' by revoking most privileges.

Same for Pixel Camera, etc., I just block network access.

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