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Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

nytimes.com

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Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#511

Post by TingPing »

genewitch wrote: post #508
virtualritz wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's curious but unsurprising that privatization of public transport is considered an answer to congestion when existence of good (or great) public transport is the working answer one can find in many places around the world. When I visited NYC two years ago, I was blown away by how unbelievably bad public transport infrastructure is. The most flabbergasting thing was the absence of Metro ring lines around the center…

I live ~33 miles away, round trio, from the nearest grocery store. No trains, no uber, no bus. The US is massive. It doesn't look like it on the mercator projection, but the US is massive. It takes days to drive across it at highway speeds. I tire of "you guys just love your cars too much". I've lived in several states and only when I lived in Los Angeles county was there ever a bus within "walking distance" - but st…

Most of the US population lives in metro areas of large cities. You are an outlier, that’s fine for rural areas.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#512

Post by Ajedi32 »

isaacremuant wrote: post #444

Everything tends to optimize to benefit the rich. Just like tax incentives on expensive electric vehicles. Of course every other metric section is beaming but the one about affecting lower income is "it's too early to tell". It's not fair economics or policy making if it always skews one way. It's like "carbon tax to force people not to fly or move, while elite private planes are essential".

> It's not fair economics

I think you have a distorted sense of what fairness is. Charging the same price to the rich that you charge to the poor for the same service is fair. Charging different prices would be unfair.

Charity/philanthropy is a good thing, because human life is inherently valuable, but it's not a matter of fairness. People don't have an inherent right to benefit from the labor or ingenuity of others.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#513

Post by PaulRobinson »

Urahandystar wrote: post #432
literalAardvark wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds divine. Does it also work in practice?

It has been a huge improvement in places like Manchester which the OP mentioned has switched to the London model. Before it was unbelievably expensive and fragmented in terms of the service with different providers requiring different fares or weekly/monthly passes. Also never knowing when a bus was going to show up. Now their an app which shows you when your next bus will arrive tracked by gps so you can leave the h…

As a former Mancunian, this was the city I was thinking of.

I remember having a meeting about a completely unrelated matter with TfGM many years ago, and they bemoaned not having the same sort of sway as TfL to fix public transport - buses in particular.

The bus situation was madness for decades: there was weird operator specific passes on the Fallowfield/University corridor (the busiest bus route in Europe when I was a student there), so you had to choose at the start of the week if you wanted a Stagecoach or a Finglands pass and then you were stuck with it. The North/South operator divide meant that everyone trying to get from say Cheetham Hill to Rusholme, had to pass through Piccadilly Gardens because that's where different companies "owned" different stands. That just led to all the problems of... well, Piccadilly Gardens...

I've not tried the Bee Network myself yet on any of my recent visits, but it looks like the fix that was needed, and it sounds like they have at least one happy customer in you. I genuinely believe it will contribute to better working conditions, cleaner air, and even economic development for Manchester.

And all it took was fixing the buses, something everyone knew needed doing more than 20 years ago...

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#514

Post by genewitch »

steadicat wrote: post #474
ochoseis wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re either exaggerating or don’t spend much time in NYC. Half of Broadway is closed to cars now, same with Wall Street. We have summer streets where they close many on weekends. Lots of dedicated bike lanes and a few isolated paths throughout the city. Could there be more? Sure. Are they completely absent? No.

I think we just have a different idea of what it means to be closed to cars. I live right by the stretch of Broadway you mention, so I’m very familiar. This is what it looks like: https://flatironnomad.nyc/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/4.2-Pla... There is no restriction of through traffic. Effectively pedestrians are still confined to tiny and overcrowded sidewalks. By comparison, here’s what a pedestrian street looks l…

The entire country of Italy is only twice the size of the state of New York.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#515

Post by TingPing »

tlogan wrote: post #472
virtualritz wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's curious but unsurprising that privatization of public transport is considered an answer to congestion when existence of good (or great) public transport is the working answer one can find in many places around the world. When I visited NYC two years ago, I was blown away by how unbelievably bad public transport infrastructure is. The most flabbergasting thing was the absence of Metro ring lines around the center…

The decline public transportation, in my view, reflects a shift in priorities within the Democratic Party. Back in the 1990s, Democrats were more focused on tangible public services—things like infrastructure, roads, transit systems. Today, the emphasis seems to have moved toward issues like environmental policy, DEI, and gender identity. As someone who’s deeply frustrated by the lack of progress on projects like hig…

This whole comment is insane but I’ll just say the last administration helped fund transit, but is of course being rolled back by the new one.

https://www.transit.dot.gov/about/news/biden-harris-administ...

https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/biden-harris-ad...

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#516

Post by jabroni_salad »

healsdata wrote: post #484
jcattle wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that would have the opposite effect. Instead of most cars going through the busy intersection (which is probably busy because it's the main way to get from A to B) more cars would go through side roads to avoid the toll. And then you have more cars going through mainly residential streets.

Google Maps and Waze are already causing this without the toll. In my town, you'll always be routed down two residential, 25 mph roads to avoid the congested part of Main St.

My town combatted this by allowing free parking on the bypass on both sides. Now it is practically a single lane road and you will hate every second you spend on it if you don't live there.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#517

Post by Chris2048 »

dahart wrote: post #500
jfim wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the reason is that public transit for whatever reason appears to be unusually sketchy in many places in the US. For example, a few years ago, there was an incident with a man with two chainsaws threatening passengers [1] in the local transit system. In contrast, the transit systems I've seen in Europe and Asia appear well maintained, clean, and relatively safe. Biking is also safer in European cities that hav…

It’s funny how the one time it has ever happened that someone wielded a chainsaw on the subway it’s memorable news, and becomes evidence of a narrative that all of public transit is ‘sketchy’. That article’s from 7 years ago, and nobody got hurt and the guy was arrested. (BTW, I wonder why they used a photo from 2009?) In the mean time, the number of shooting deaths by private car drivers in the US has more than doub…

Fairly recently: https://nypost.com/2025/04/15/us-news/cause-of-death-still-a...

A man died while riding the train, one person robbed the corpse, then another had sex with it..

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#518

Post by AnotherGoodName »

dahart wrote: post #500
jfim wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the reason is that public transit for whatever reason appears to be unusually sketchy in many places in the US. For example, a few years ago, there was an incident with a man with two chainsaws threatening passengers [1] in the local transit system. In contrast, the transit systems I've seen in Europe and Asia appear well maintained, clean, and relatively safe. Biking is also safer in European cities that hav…

It’s funny how the one time it has ever happened that someone wielded a chainsaw on the subway it’s memorable news, and becomes evidence of a narrative that all of public transit is ‘sketchy’. That article’s from 7 years ago, and nobody got hurt and the guy was arrested. (BTW, I wonder why they used a photo from 2009?) In the mean time, the number of shooting deaths by private car drivers in the US has more than doub…

As an outsider (Australian) living in the USA there's non stop propaganda for anything that could make a dollar if privatised. To the extent that many don't believe public run systems can function at all.

Anything disparaging public transit is played up to the extend even sitcoms will have disparaging scenes that are essentially "you took public transport? Are you poor?". The tax system is basically privatised, it's a pain to do anything without paying for tax software now with a lot of lobbying and propaganda that it's the only way. A lot of US citizens actually seem to believe that anything government run is inefficient (despite the lack of academic data on this) and demand the dismantling of all government institutions (see DOGE). Even utilities are often privatized with no competition (you just pay what you're told).

It's a bit crazy coming from a country where i had fibre internet at my regional home (the recently rolled out national broadband network) which is faster than the best connection i can get in the middle of silicon valley, i had affordable public transit with a universal tap on/off card that worked for all of them so no change/cash needed. Universal healthcare. A free online tax system that would start pre-filled by the numbers my employer+stockbroker entered in, i just had to quickly check through any federal or state specific exemptions i might qualify for. Etc.

Like it's madness the level of propaganda for this viewpoint that privatization is better and it's blatant why that propaganda is there - you privatize something essential like healthcare and you can leach vast amounts of money from everyone.

To this day my home country pays a fraction of US salaries yet the median wealth per capita is more than double the USA (Australia's 261k wealth per capita vs USAs 112k wealth per capita) since we don't get leached at every turn by privatized essential services. Yet in the USA they are clamouring for more of this as if that makes them wealthier.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#519

Post by stevenwoo »

choeger wrote: post #345

I wonder if this will eventually lead to increased density and if that then leads to congested bike lanes. Will the cities of tomorrow regulate traffic between individual buildings? Make no mistake, bikes are much, much, better for urban centers than cars. But the overall problem isn't cars, it's individual traffic in densely populated areas. Certain policy here in Europe simply assumes that people stay in their surr…

Paris and London have already done things to lower car usage in urban core and they do not have your hypothesized "problem". Someone else already posted about London https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2025/04/12/...

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#520

Post by dfxm12 »

epistasis wrote: post #137
timewizard wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you have children or did you live alone?

As someone with children, I can not imagine the bliss of living in Manhattan and being able to do things without needing a car. Car-centric urban planning is hell with kids. You have to load them up into the car for any small trip. You can't walk or bike anywhere because cars make it so dangerous. My only regret about living in the US is this car hellscape that is so hard to avoid. It's mandated by law, not chosen by…

What is the danger compared to riding in cars, which is dangerous too? What about other alternatives like bus or subway?

With fewer cars on the road, thanks to the congestion pricing, we'll probably see safer roads for all users, as well.

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