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Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

nytimes.com

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Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#391

Post by Y_Y »

Thlom wrote: post #374
PaulRobinson wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the UK did this in the 1980s and it’s turned into such a disaster, most mayors and local authorities are trying to move to the London model: companies can bid a flat rate to deliver a bus service (effectively, they commit to providing drivers to deliver the timetable). TfL collects all fares. They also - I think - supply most of the buses to ensure they are of a certain standard, but the companies need to le…

I don't know about London, but many places systems like this results in terrible working conditions for drivers. Pay is lousy, shift arrangements are in some cases insane, like work from 5:30-10:00 and then 14:00-17:00. Minimal time in between routes to go to the toilet and so on.

How else are you going to lower costs?

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#392

Post by Xss3 »

Thlom wrote: post #374
PaulRobinson wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the UK did this in the 1980s and it’s turned into such a disaster, most mayors and local authorities are trying to move to the London model: companies can bid a flat rate to deliver a bus service (effectively, they commit to providing drivers to deliver the timetable). TfL collects all fares. They also - I think - supply most of the buses to ensure they are of a certain standard, but the companies need to le…

I don't know about London, but many places systems like this results in terrible working conditions for drivers. Pay is lousy, shift arrangements are in some cases insane, like work from 5:30-10:00 and then 14:00-17:00. Minimal time in between routes to go to the toilet and so on.

Workers, especially drivers, have rights in the UK.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#393

Post by koyote »

alex_duf wrote: post #372
stuaxo wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think London has private mini buses like that, just a huge amount of buses. They are operated by companies for TFL (though they are all red, you can read the company name). I'm not sure at what point that arrangement happened, somewhere between the outright privatisations of the 80s, or the stealth ones of the black years, which used PFI.

I think citymapper ran an experimental private bus line because they had identified a gap. But their article doesn't have a date, and I seem to remember this was years ago, so not sure where it's at. https://citymapper.com/news/1800/introducing-the-citymapper-...

2017 according to their facebook post about it.

I vaguely remember hearing about it but never tried it out. Not sure when it was canned. The software part sounds very interesting but could also be sold to existing transit companies and government agencies to improve their network.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#396

Post by RhysU »

jcranmer wrote: post #232
kortilla wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Car drivers are very routinely punished for running red lights. That is far less common than cyclists doing it.

I have seen as many car drivers punished for running a red light as I have seen cyclists running one--zero in both cases. Enforcement of traffic laws is painfully lax.

Automatic cameras send tickets for cars running redlights in NYC: https://www.nyc.gov/site/finance/vehicles/red-light-camera-v...

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#397

Post by koyote »

jaza wrote: post #314
jmyeet wrote: post #33

I was living in London when congestion pricing was introduced and went into the West End the day before and the first day of and the difference was night and day. The difference along Oxford Street, Regent's Street, Green Street, etc was astounding. And in the 20+ years the evidence seems to back up how much of a net positive it has been. NYC congestion pricing took way too long because the New York Democratic Party…

Wow - there's free street parking in Lower Manhattan?! Yep, there's your problem! Here in Sydney Australia, we don't have any congestion charge (there's been some talk about introducing one, but it's not really on the cards at this time). But it's pretty much impossible to find parking in the CBD (Mon-Fri 9-5) for less than around AUD$60 (USD$40) per day. There is literally no un-metered street parking anywhere in th…

> most people choose public transport over driving

Is that true? I was surprised when looking at the actual stats (most people in Sydney drive to work), but maybe there are many more people working in places other than the CBD skewing this.

When I was cycling in from Balmain, there were a huge number of cars stuck in traffic getting into the CBD every morning. Despite it only being an easy 15 minute cycle (or a 15 minute bus ride) from the peninsula.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#398

Post by presentation »

HPsquared wrote: post #389
choeger wrote: post #345

I wonder if this will eventually lead to increased density and if that then leads to congested bike lanes. Will the cities of tomorrow regulate traffic between individual buildings? Make no mistake, bikes are much, much, better for urban centers than cars. But the overall problem isn't cars, it's individual traffic in densely populated areas. Certain policy here in Europe simply assumes that people stay in their surr…

The other problem with public transport is anyone wanting to go from, say, the northeast to the southeast outskirts of a city. Public transport will tend to take everyone via the centre whereas a direct route would be much shorter.

That’s a problem if the public transit system is solely geared towards sending people to the center. As a counter example there are lines in Tokyo that take different paths, like JR Musashino and Nambu lines, which do a big arc in the outskirts, or the Tokyu Oimachi Line, that does a line through southern suburbs, to name a few. Buses also fill in connections between lines that lack a direct rail connection (or you can go with scooter/bike shares)

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#399

Post by virtualritz »

aynyc wrote: post #271

As a long time NYC resident who moved out during Covid but commute to work in the city. I definitely noticed less traffic on the streets and less noise. I see a lot of talk of other cities that don't have good public transportation. For example, between Flushing in Queens to 8th Ave in Brooklyn, there are privately run buses at affordable rate and get you there at half the time of trains. There are buses from a lot o…

It's curious but unsurprising that privatization of public transport is considered an answer to congestion when existence of good (or great) public transport is the working answer one can find in many places around the world.

When I visited NYC two years ago, I was blown away by how unbelievably bad public transport infrastructure is.

The most flabbergasting thing was the absence of Metro ring lines around the center. The fact these have not been built, in 2025, when Metro transport networks in most cities are now over a century old, is telling.

IMHO the real problem is cars. The US still can't imagine itself without cars.

I live in Berlin center. The only reason for me to own a car is prestige. So I don't.

During rush hour any destination I go to, even outer city, would take me the same time by public transport as by car. At least.

During non-peak hours going by car can be from 25-40% faster than by public transport if you trust Google Maps & co.

But these estimates only consider travel time. When you add finding a place to park at the destination (and walking to the destination as the place may not be right in front) this shrinks to either negative numbers or max. savings of maybe 25%.

My average travel time is around 30mins by public transport. This includes walking to and from the station.

Why would I own a car to save maybe, on a lucky day, 5mins?

At the same time bike infrastructure is being improved. Lots of side streets have been declared bike streets, cars may only enter if they have business there (you live there or deliver something).

The city has enforced this with blocking off intersections on such streets with permanent structures that let only bicycles pass.

Big streets have bike lanes that are often separated by a curb or bollards from car traffic.

This makes it also less nice to drive a car. You can't use Waze any more to guide you through side streets to avoid congestion because these streets can't be passed through any more by car, only on foot or by bike.

Which means the chance of being stuck in traffic increases. When at the same time you have options to be there just as fast with public transport and almost as fast but more healthy and with less likeliness of being ran over by a car, by bike.

These ideas are not new. And there are many more things other cities do to reduce car traffic/need for cars.

If you think of private mini busses, the best examples IMHO is actually ridepooling, e.g. Volkswagen's Moia in Hamburg and Hannover.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#400

Post by HPsquared »

BlackFly wrote: post #366
choeger wrote: post #345

I wonder if this will eventually lead to increased density and if that then leads to congested bike lanes. Will the cities of tomorrow regulate traffic between individual buildings? Make no mistake, bikes are much, much, better for urban centers than cars. But the overall problem isn't cars, it's individual traffic in densely populated areas. Certain policy here in Europe simply assumes that people stay in their surr…

Bikes just don't take up nearly as much space as cars and don't really block each other as much: gridlock is a problem for cars but not really for bikes. In the Netherlands there are a number of famous intersections where there are no signs nor right of way rules and people on bikes and pedestrians just pass through each other by slowing down and taking turns. These intersection rules were chosen because of the high…

How are e-bikes doing in NL?
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