Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

news.patreon.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

511–520 of 1001 posts

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#511

Post by burkaman »

meagher wrote: post #426
jprete wrote: post #10

I remember reading that per-creation billing is a very important feature for Patreon creators, because it removes the moral obligation to produce content just to justify a subscription. If Patreon really doesn't want to kill the feature itself, but is just responding to Apple's enforcement, then it seems like a really clear illustration of monopoly power - pushing unrelated markets to change their own structure and p…

Where did you read that? I worked at Patreon from 2018-2021 and per creation was a much smaller group than recurring during that time at least. (Think per creation was even disabled as an option for new sign-ups for a while.)

I'm surprised to hear this, I thought it was the main selling point of Patreon. I have per-creation subscriptions to a few people on Patreon who produce very high-quality stuff very infrequently, and I will probably cancel if they are forced to switch to monthly billing. Their stuff is great, but not so great that I'm willing to sign up for a monthly fee that I forget about and then realize 3 years later that they've stopped making stuff.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#512

Post by adamomada »

jjcm wrote: post #233

In my eyes the most egregious aspect of this is it’s a financial transaction between two people that they’re taking a 30% cut of. I see 30% as fine for things like IAP for digital games and such, but somehow in this lens it feels wrong. One proposal for a compromise that would feel fair: Apple gets 30% of the app creator’s take rate. IE if patreon’s take rate is 8%, Apple should get 30% of that , not 30% of the full…

If it was a financial transaction between two people, then Apple couldn’t possibly take any cut of it.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#513

Post by danShumway »

riku_iki wrote: post #470
danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

> Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. they are both rent seeking middle-men who abuse network effect, its just one has more power than another.

This gets brought up a lot in conversations about Apple.

In one sense, I agree with it. Patreon is a rent-seeking middleman who abuses network effects. 100%.

But the creators on Patreon who's income are going to be most affected by this don't care about which side of the debate is more likeable to you, and I'm kind of sick of pretending that policies that affect a huge swath of people (often people with limited options, virtually no power, and few backup resources) can be treated like popularity contests.

The video essayists, programmers, artists, authors, and indies doing weird, wonderful work supported through Patreon get their revenue squeezed even tighter, being forced to either bleed revenue or subscribers due to new fees, being forced to abandon revenue models and subscription models that Apple doesn't like.. and, I mean, honestly, "I hate both companies" just is not a valid or acceptable response to that situation.

The solution to rent-seeking middlemen is not to make more of them.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#514

Post by cyberax »

iudqnolq wrote: post #498
cyberax wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I downloaded the Patreon app to listen to podcasts. Regardless of who is to blame from my perspective their imperfect app provides a better user experience than Firefox or Chrome on my Android phone.

Does it sync them for offline listen? I can do that with Youtube videos in a browser.

They could have trivially added that to their website.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#515

Post by FireBeyond »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #198
mensetmanusman wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30% is too high. Charge whatever Visa charges.

Without commenting on the appropriate level of charges, Visa and Apple provide very different services. For example, with Apple, you get administration of taxes in many locales as well as dealing with currency exchange. Also, I don't think sellers have to deal with chargebacks, although Apple might have their own version of a chargeback, but I am not sure.

> Also, I don't think sellers have to deal with chargebacks, although Apple might have their own version of a chargeback, but I am not sure.

They absolutely do, just through Apple, "Disputes".

Apple will refund the user the full purchase price (that's fun, $10 app, you get $7 after the Apple cut, and on refund, you have to refund $10, so you're actually out money).

And too many disputes will get your developer privileges restricted or revoked.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#516

Post by riku_iki »

danShumway wrote: post #513
riku_iki wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. they are both rent seeking middle-men who abuse network effect, its just one has more power than another.

This gets brought up a lot in conversations about Apple. In one sense, I agree with it. Patreon is a rent-seeking middleman who abuses network effects. 100%. But the creators on Patreon who's income are going to be most affected by this don't care about which side of the debate is more likeable to you, and I'm kind of sick of pretending that policies that affect a huge swath of people (often people with limited optio…

I am wondering why Apple and Patreon even a thing in this market. Most of the content is distributed through Youtube, so Google can just step in, create patreon interface and cut both of them, get some extra revenue, and be a good guy.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#517

Post by FireBeyond »

Rinzler89 wrote: post #326
FireBeyond wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a survey of my non-technical friends, only a very small minority seemed to know that Apple took any cut whatsoever.

How would they know and why would they care?

Good question. But reading this thread and every one of these has multiple people saying "Apple users know and choose to have this experience, we've opted in."

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#518

Post by danShumway »

jirf_dev wrote: post #506
danShumway wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple has also made clear that if creators on Patreon continue to use unsupported billing models or disable transactions in the iOS app, we will be at risk of having the entire app removed from their App Store.

This is confusing to me, does this mean Amazon, Netflix, and Spotify will be in violation as well? None of these companies allow subscription or digital goods transactions in their iOS apps. I’m not sure why Patreon couldn’t replace the “subscribe” button with a “wishlist” button within the iOS app. They could add a link that opens your wishlist in the browser too. It turns what should be 1 click into 3, but it seems…

Admittedly, I also wondered about this. I'm taking Patreon at their word (for now), but I would welcome Apple making some kind of statement indicating that Patreon is allowed to disable payments in the app.

And if it is true that they're not allowed to disable payments, I would also love to know what's special about Amazon, Netflix, and Spotify (other than their size) that would allow them to "get away" with the same behavior.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#519

Post by DataDive »

danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does?

There is a video link on the page from the original post where the Patreon CEO explains and reiterates the issues.

Notably, at one point, he says that Apple Platform brings in the most money to Patreon.

So there, looks like Apple brings in the money for Patreon. Apple seems to want a cut of that.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#520

Post by desert_rue »

simonh wrote: post #505
xyst wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s time for tech (not just Apple) to be broken up. If only we haven’t defanged the regulatory agencies …

Broken up in what way, and how would it help?

Generally, the Apple Store would be a separate company from Apple phones. A user gets to choose which store they want to use on their phone. Along with other things like which map app is the default.

This way, the different stores could compete - by charging lower fees or offering more services. Like the android store does a bare-bones check of the app and so it only charges 10%. Apple checks every app throughly, so it charges 15%. Some open source store might have 0% fee, have no app checks, no payment processing, and it is 100% on the user not to download infested software.

Post reply on HN