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"Lighten up"

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Re: "Lighten up"

#511

Post by cellularmitosis »

msbarnett wrote: post #500
cellularmitosis wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A or B? Consider this thought experiment: if it is the case that there is a ton of interest by women in programming, but that interest is frustrated by the "star wars" factor, that would imply that there's a huge pool of untapped female programming power. Why hasn't an enterprising business person realized this and created the next facebook-killer or google-killer by assembling a team of all-female ninjas? My first r…

> My first reaction to this experiment would be "Because they were frustrated before they had the chance to graduate with a CS degree". Well, there's more to it than that. Female participation was fairly high in the 70s, dropped precipitously through the 80s, 90s, and early 00s, and is only now kinda-sorta-maybe starting to recover. The hidden factor in there is the Personal Computer revolution. Prior to it, men and…

ah, that's very interesting.

actually, my personal experience corroborates with that data. I'm a bit of an outlier, having switched to CS in my second year and never having written a line of code before then (my (male) classmates and coworkers are always shocked to learn of this, because they had all started programming at a much younger age).

Re: "Lighten up"

#512

Post by sophacles »

LaGrange wrote: post #80
huckfinnaafb wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ridiculous. Coming to your partner's defense is not a matter of gender, but one of loyalty. Reverse the genders in this case and the threat still applies.

Only thing is, this would not be coming to partners defense, but pointless chest-thumping. Now, I think I know what he meant by writing that, and I doubt he'd actually do anything other than being nice to her and supporting her in whatever she chooses to do with it, but the expression still matters. The brainwashing gets us all. It's sad when it gets us while we're trying to be supportive. The proper expression is "I…

Or perhaps simply expressing anger is something he doesn't like to do near his family. It could be a rage issue, but more likely it would have interferred in smaller ways with his ability to be properly supportive. Perhaps he would have suggested a confrontational route (get lawyers involved e.g.) that would have made his wife uncomfortable. Perhaps done something like suggest ways to "fix" the problem, rather than just be there as a supportive spouse. Many people would be uncomfortable with those reactions in themselves, and therefore would not want to expose their family to it.

Amusingly, your statement "the brainwashing gets us all" was most appropriately applied to your own presumption that he would fit some male role when being uncomfortable with proximity and anger.

Re: "Lighten up"

#513

Post by strix_varius »

OneBytePerGreen wrote: post #414
briancurtin wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think she needs to lighten up because you haven't had the same experiences and you have different ideas of comfortable clothing?

I mean "lighten up" as in, she perceives "a million little barbs" around her and sees herself as the victim of sexism lurking everywhere. She didn't just criticize one company or co-worker, but the whole industry. Her post is a torrent of rhetorical questions, exclamation points, hyperbole, and quotes she ascribes to her co-workers that likely never happened. Do you really think someone responded to her concerns with…

This.

I work on a small team - just over 20 people - with only four women.

Every single one is a hilarious, self-possessed, confident individual. All the men, myself included, treat them with respect... meaning, we tease the shit out of them.

To do otherwise would exclude them from the team. Have you ever seen a cohesive group that didn't joke around? A tiny fraction of the jabs traded by men are HR-approved... if we filtered that for the women who work with us, we would be treating them as if they're too weak or too sensitive to be a part of the group.

So instead, we treat them no differently than any other team member. If one of the other coders were to arrive unusually dressed up, I would absolutely comment on it, regardless of whether it's a suit or a dress, but one of the ladies would probably beat me to it. Frankly, the women push the HR line harder than any of us guys, and we love them for it.

If you find that people are constantly telling you to "lighten up," whether you're male or female, you shouldn't assume that the world is conspiring to put you down. You're probably just no fun to work with.

Re: "Lighten up"

#514

Post by javascriptlol »

jasonlotito wrote: post #504
javascriptlol wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't downvote, respond. I am not abusing anyone here.

I'm not downvoting, or commenting on the topic. However, comments like yours here should be downvotes. It's a comment that contributes nothing, simply you whining about being downvoted. If you honestly care about quality, you shut up about pointless numbers that mean nothing.

The "pointless numbers" hide the comments and make it hard for people to read them. They encourage more group think, which is apparently rampant in these parts.

Re: "Lighten up"

#515

Post by strix_varius »

Would you enjoy working with this author, regardless of gender?

I work on a small team - just over 20 people - with only four women.

Every single one is a hilarious, self-possessed, confident individual. All the men, myself included, treat them with respect... meaning, we tease the shit out of them.

To do otherwise would exclude them from the team. Have you ever seen a cohesive group that didn't joke around? A tiny fraction of the jabs traded by men are HR-approved... if we filtered that for the women who work with us, we would be treating them as if they're too weak or too sensitive to be a part of the group.

So instead, we treat them no differently than any other team member. If one of the other coders were to arrive unusually dressed up, I would absolutely comment on it, regardless of whether it's a suit or a dress, but one of the ladies would probably beat me to it. Frankly, the women push the HR line harder than any of us guys, and we love them for it.

If you find that people are consistently telling you to "lighten up," whether you're male or female, you shouldn't assume that the world is conspiring to put you down. You're probably just no fun to work with.

Re: "Lighten up"

#516

Post by javascriptlol »

OneBytePerGreen wrote: post #414
briancurtin wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think she needs to lighten up because you haven't had the same experiences and you have different ideas of comfortable clothing?

I mean "lighten up" as in, she perceives "a million little barbs" around her and sees herself as the victim of sexism lurking everywhere. She didn't just criticize one company or co-worker, but the whole industry. Her post is a torrent of rhetorical questions, exclamation points, hyperbole, and quotes she ascribes to her co-workers that likely never happened. Do you really think someone responded to her concerns with…

Careful there son. You're in danger of becoming the voice of reason in this thread.

Re: "Lighten up"

#517

Post by zasz »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #330
drhayes9 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Yes, Virginia, this is sexist. Holy hell, is it sexist. You are characterizing a woman's behavior in terms of how it makes you, as a man, feel. There are many reasons that a human might dress a particular way, but by characterizing it as a gender-based, "she wore that to make me do this" kind of transaction you have incor…

Are you sure? Of course I'm not sure . But when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras. Why do all the waitresses in Hooters wear low-cut tops? Is it for comfort? Is it because they couldn't afford the other 30% of the shirt? Or is it because that's proven to be very effective at gaining male attention? I wore them for me, not for anyone else. This makes no sense. In a post-apocolyptic world where you're the on…

Mmm, I guess this doesn't have to make sense to you, but there are people who enjoy being fashionable. I don't understand them either, but it seems to be a form of self-expression, not an invitation to flirt.

Re: "Lighten up"

#518

Post by Cushman »

javascriptlol wrote: post #509
Cushman wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also such a thing as dressing well because it is comfortable, or makes one feel better about oneself, without the intention of attracting sexual attention, and the distinction between the two is not pedantic. It is at the core of the disagreement here. Look at the original quote: "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" A clear statement of sexual interest, which Katie clearly…

Boohoo. If I come into work with a big pink sombrero on my head people would probably give me some unfavorable remarks. My reasons for wearing it are irrelevant. It wouldn't excuse violence or career repercussions, but it would be childish to expect that you can present yourself in any way you like without others reacting to it. That is a key purpose of presentation.

All I can say is you need to read this all over again -- starting with the original blog post -- because you have missed the point in a big, big way.

Re: "Lighten up"

#519

Post by foxit »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #134

I applaud the author for sharing her feelings. I also note that she does not speak for all women. All we can do is share our own experiences. I've been through many of these discussions: sexism, racism, ageism, and so on. After receiving many a rhetorical punch in the nose, I have a simple rule: I don't do it, I don't approve of it being done, if I am in management I stop it. I also don't let people yank me around by…

They may not go anywhere productive in your eyes, which I would imagine means they do not reach a definitive and world-changing conclusion in the course of the thread, but they do increase awareness, particularly in male-dominated arenas like this. Increasing awareness is probably the most important thing that can be done. See klausa's post.

It's also the case that fighting injustice and increasing awareness of societal boulders that need to be broken down might very well lead to larger change that results in less actual dying in the world. For instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_women_of_Asia http://www.economist.com/node/15636231

Re: "Lighten up"

#520

Post by reneherse »

outworlder wrote: post #464
georgieporgie wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? So, I'm not going to agree or disagree with you, since I don't really know exactly what you're saying. I will say this, though: there is professional attire for women. Generally speaking, this doesn't involve form-hugging clothing. A fitted women's dress shirt is not form-hugging, by the way. Personally, I recognize that I…

> Personally, I recognize that I have an unfortunate automatic physiological response to breasts. I've discussed this with female friends whom I've respected and liked strictly as friends. If exposed to low-cut tops, I find my eyes darting to them, particularly when I'm distracted or concentrating on some thought. If I were in a position where a well-endowed female coworker were wearing very snug or revealing clothin…

Your attraction is normal. How you choose to act, what conclusions you draw about the other person, are the important things in this context.

Sexism would be if your attraction influenced your professional behavior towards your prospective client in any way, negatively or positively.

As you hinted, being able to be less distracted by an attractive figure is a matter of self-mastery, which often comes more easily with maturity, and to some degree familiarity. But a modern gentleman knows to treat others as persons first, not as sexual beings, especially in a professional context.

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