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Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

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Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#511

Post by alkonaut »

the_overseer wrote: post #388
alkonaut wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s fine. But the worst case response time across the entire UI must be the first item on that spec! That spec is of course the responsibility of the OEM to create. Where this goes wrong I don’t know but competition, price sensitivity etc doesn’t explain it. Having soft and hard limits for response time seems obvious and someone either forgot, or they had a meeting where they (the OEM, after deciding on a solution…

It's not criminal so they will continue to lower the cost. 50ms quickly becomes 500ms response time when you realize that no tier 1 supplier can hit within your OEM budget and your boss is becoming impatient :) Another thing that happens is when there is a 50ms response time mandated and at the start of the project you have 30ms and it slowly creeps up until you get to 55ms. Then the blame game starts. Like I said pr…

I think this describes a lot of how software is developed (which just goes to show how immature that part of the industry is.). Similar contracts and agreements exist between manufacturers of the brake system as well but if there is an issue there where the ABS system doesn't prevent lockup in 1% of cases, then the problem is solved or the car launch is delayed, because that's what the system is designed to do. The problem here of course is that these things are seen as gadgets without safety aspects and there is no regulatory oversight.

I guess it's also up to buyers: don't buy cars with shoddy infotainment.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#512

Post by DeathArrow »

jjav wrote: post #371
andrewmcwatters wrote: post #189

I wouldn't mind touchscreens as long as these imbecile developers would strictly limit UI response time to under 16ms. In no world where you're barrelling 3,000+ lbs of mass at tens of miles an hour should you be distracted by some moronic app or subsystem failing to respond in time because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." Any software running as a part of a motor vehicle should be federally…

> So what? You've got physical buttons? Big whoop. That physical button that takes 500ms to respond is still as dangerous. No, that's wrong. Problem with touchscreens is that (1) you need to look at them and (2) there is no tactile feedback of whether you pressed it or not and (3) you need to hover your arm in a moving car at just the right spot. Physical buttons cleanly resolve all of these major problems. If the ac…

Yes, but if you are bored from a long drive, you can watch some commercials on the screen or navigate 20 submenus to move the AC one degree up or down.

Are you sure you want to modify the temperature? Please read the following agreement and type I AGREE if you agree.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#513

Post by hnick »

Xelbair wrote: post #478
jjav wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what? You've got physical buttons? Big whoop. That physical button that takes 500ms to respond is still as dangerous. No, that's wrong. Problem with touchscreens is that (1) you need to look at them and (2) there is no tactile feedback of whether you pressed it or not and (3) you need to hover your arm in a moving car at just the right spot. Physical buttons cleanly resolve all of these major problems. If the ac…

It is not about 'looking and pushing' the button. It's about stateful UI. physical layout of buttons is usually stateless - press button thing turns on, press it again it turns off. You don't need to think in which menu you are, and where to press, while driving.

Compounding this on a touchscreen is slippage. Cars can be bumpy. If you slip and hit the wrong control it can take an unacceptably large amount of concentration (given what you are meant to be actually concentrating on when driving) to work out where you are now, how to get back to where you are, and try to do the original thing again. A few seconds of confusion and distraction is more than enough to kill.

Tactile buttons are usually much harder to press by mistake. I'm glad my i30 only seems to require the touchscreen for CarPlay (a necessary evil), or settings which I'd generally only check when parked.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#514

Post by DonHopkins »

im3w1l wrote: post #276
morkalork wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did back up cameras save that many lives?

My guess would be that it faced little resistance as those cameras have many other benefits than saving lives.

No, it faced a huge amount of resistance, took about 5 years to pass a law, then about 10 years for the regulators to actually enforce it.

Exactly like sane and popular gun control laws to prevent thousands of childrens' tragic deaths per year from guns face fanatical well funded resistance from insane and corrupt institutions like the NRA and GOP.

Childhood’s Greatest Danger: The Data on Kids and Gun Violence:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/12/14/magazine/gun-...

'Misfire' takes a hard look at nepotism, fraud and corruption in the NRA:

https://www.npr.org/2021/11/02/1051363337/misfire-takes-a-ha...

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#515

Post by iSnow »

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #189

I wouldn't mind touchscreens as long as these imbecile developers would strictly limit UI response time to under 16ms. In no world where you're barrelling 3,000+ lbs of mass at tens of miles an hour should you be distracted by some moronic app or subsystem failing to respond in time because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." Any software running as a part of a motor vehicle should be federally…

Please, which physical button needs half a second to activate?

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#516

Post by hulitu »

amluto wrote: post #252
sircastor wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." I used to be an infotainment software engineer for an Auto maker. There’s this idea in the software industry that because the software behaves poorly on your car’s system, it must’ve been written poorly by someone who didn’t know what they were doing. In my experience it was almost always a matter of the hardware being stretched way past its limits.…

I'm willing to credit this type of feature creep for some of the problem, but only some. Decades ago, we had hardware that was so much less capable than anything anyone has put in a car in ten years that the comparison is absurd. Nonetheless, those old systems were often very capable of doing useful things, and the UIs were often very, very fast by modern standards. And a lot of this was that the software stack was t…

The automotive's industry answer to safety and security is complexity. And it is only getting worse.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#517

Post by vibragiel »

checkyoursudo wrote: post #393

With. A. Passion. Other touch screens (or similar things) I dislike: - the controls on my stove top - the controls on my monitor - the controls on my tv - the controls on my thermostat - probably more All of these should have physical buttons for the limited number of functions required. Or, at a minimum, for navigation and confirmation. Touch screens there suck. My wife's car has a touch screen on the control/infota…

Totally agree. Lately touch switches have been riddling every electric appliance: kitchen hood, microwave, washing machine, dishwasher... I think that being easier to clean doesn't pay off for the utter loss of usability. That's why I'm very fond of Breville (Sage here in Europe) appliances: they're covered with buttons and knobs.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#518

Post by lodovic »

hnick wrote: post #513
Xelbair wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not about 'looking and pushing' the button. It's about stateful UI. physical layout of buttons is usually stateless - press button thing turns on, press it again it turns off. You don't need to think in which menu you are, and where to press, while driving.

Compounding this on a touchscreen is slippage. Cars can be bumpy. If you slip and hit the wrong control it can take an unacceptably large amount of concentration (given what you are meant to be actually concentrating on when driving) to work out where you are now, how to get back to where you are, and try to do the original thing again. A few seconds of confusion and distraction is more than enough to kill. Tactile b…

Especially this. I had too many times where the road was bumpy and I needed to press a button on the infotainment system. You need to rest your thumb off screen first in order to be able to press the correct button on the touchscreen. It's an unsafe way to control the car.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#519

Post by tsm »

checkyoursudo wrote: post #393

With. A. Passion. Other touch screens (or similar things) I dislike: - the controls on my stove top - the controls on my monitor - the controls on my tv - the controls on my thermostat - probably more All of these should have physical buttons for the limited number of functions required. Or, at a minimum, for navigation and confirmation. Touch screens there suck. My wife's car has a touch screen on the control/infota…

Thankfully I have physical knobs on my stovetop, so my current least favorite is my dishwasher. When am I practically guaranteed to have damp hands? After doing the dishes. When do I need to start the dishwasher? After doing the dishes. Why have an interface that requires dry (but not too dry!) fingertips?

The extra knife twist is that if I misjudge how wet my hands are, I get a little water on the dishwasher controls and then they don't work at all until I dry them thoroughly.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#520

Post by lodovic »

m463 wrote: post #469
bradgessler wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Physical buttons cleanly resolve all of these major problems > Given that with a physical button you didn't have to take your eyes off the road and given the tactile feedback you know for sure you activated/pressed/moved the control I never understand the "you don't have to look at buttons" argument—my car has lots of physical buttons and to push them, I briefly have to look at the console, find the button, and pre…

> I never understand the "you don't have to look at buttons" argument—my car has lots of physical buttons and to push them, I briefly have to look at the console, find the button, and press it You don't realize just how MUCH worse doing it on a touchscreen is. A touchscreen button is in a specific region of space, yet that region jumps and jostles around because the car and the touchscreen are moving and your arm is…

Skoda uses gestures, so when I accidentally wave my hand the infotainment system changes page. Really not thought through.
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