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Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

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Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#511

Post by bena »

neonnoodle wrote: post #71

The medium is the message dudes. At this point in history, what will qualify a true counterculture is NOT BEING ONLINE. Whatever the true counterculture will be, it won’t be subject to the Internet and its all-seeing eye. It won’t be made out of memes and flame wars. No matter what the political bent, we’re all very much a captive audience online. “Master’s house/master’s tools” and all that.

Which I think signals a complete 180 from my lifetime.

Because, there was a time when being online was the counterculture. If you habituated newsgroups, IRC, BBSes, etc, you were on the fringe. Now, all of that is commonplace in some fashion. Newsgroups are basically places like this, reddit, even Facebook to some extent. IRC has its analogs in Discord, Slack, etc. BBSes are any online game community.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#512

Post by runarberg »

PuppyTailWags wrote: post #485

I kind of think we have a fragmentary counterculture going against prevailing culture in certain aspects only. Just as hippie counterculture was obviously mostly in american college-educated middle class students and black panthers were obviously primarily black. We have traditional catholics in america who are going against the pope's relatively progressive positions on gay people. We have aggressive de-institutiona…

When I think of counter culture, I think more about the cultural artifacts then some shared political believes. Sure the scene might have some shared politics, but that is a by-product, and is not necessary. I mean, see the punks and their wide range of politics.

As an example, other people have mentioned furries. They do have a pretty easily distinguishable aesthetics which you’ll spot immediately when you look at their art or their fashion. They might all share a pro LGBTQI+ agenda, but that is as far as their politics will agree, and besides most people have the same political view about LGBTQI+ anyway.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#513

Post by selimthegrim »

harimau777 wrote: post #221
drewcon wrote: post #114

I’m going to get flamed for this but at this point the closest we’re getting to counter culture is the exact opposite… “Trads”. Young people with super traditional values doing exactly the opposite of most of what you just listed. No one would seriously suggest the trendiest most mainstream supported or glorified lifestyles (van life, queerness, gig work) are counter culture…that IS the culture; there’s very little c…

I think it is at least somewhat contextual. Being LGBTQ in the Deep South is different than in a major coastal city.

New Orleans being an exception.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#514

Post by eastof »

TbobbyZ wrote: post #457
neonnoodle wrote: post #71

The medium is the message dudes. At this point in history, what will qualify a true counterculture is NOT BEING ONLINE. Whatever the true counterculture will be, it won’t be subject to the Internet and its all-seeing eye. It won’t be made out of memes and flame wars. No matter what the political bent, we’re all very much a captive audience online. “Master’s house/master’s tools” and all that.

I agree. It’s a privilege to be able to make a living without the internet.

I know what you are getting at, but just want to point out there are still plenty of offline jobs out there which are very much not privileged. For example, the independent recycler rummaging through your bin at night is likely all offline but they're not "privileged" by any means. From their perspective, those making money online are very privleged.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#515

Post by jhbadger »

burkaman wrote: post #437
alldayeveryday wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, you lump all of queer culture into one group, a false categorization without which your augment fails. In fact, I do lump them onto one group. Many subgroups inside a group. You know who I am referring to when I say queer culture. The group exists, it isn't false. Colors keep getting added to the flag. Rather than engage with reality you prefer to have useless rhetorical debates. Let's move past that. >Secon…

I'm pretty sure the word counterculture was literally invented to describe hippies in the 60s.

Close. It was invented in 1960, prior to the hippie movement and referring to their predecessors, the beatniks of the 1950s.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#516

Post by dsfyu404ed »

gfaregan wrote: post #203
drewcon wrote: post #114

I’m going to get flamed for this but at this point the closest we’re getting to counter culture is the exact opposite… “Trads”. Young people with super traditional values doing exactly the opposite of most of what you just listed. No one would seriously suggest the trendiest most mainstream supported or glorified lifestyles (van life, queerness, gig work) are counter culture…that IS the culture; there’s very little c…

I think your social standing has a lot more to do with money than behavior. If you're rich and live in a van you're interesting, otherwise you're just homeless. If your gig is a successful business you're independent, if it's Uber you're barely surviving.

The richer you are the broader the range of behavior you can get away with. But the spectrum of all behavior in which this acceptable range lives moves.

Warren Buffet can't have a side gig running scrap in an unregistered truck with a Newport hanging out of his mouth.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#517

Post by dr-detroit »

jjk166 wrote: post #484

If you only consume mainstream media then you may personally live in a society which lacks a counterculture. You strike up a conversation with the girl picking mushrooms in the middle of nowhere or you go to an underground death metal concert or spend a bit of time on 4chan and you'll find countercultures alive and well that you're just not part of. If you think a sense of sameness pervades the creative world then yo…

[dead]

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#518

Post by undersuit »

dragonwriter wrote: post #452
undersuit wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up with a number of rosaries. I would have to bring them into my Catholic grade school and then we'd walk to the church on campus and spend the next hour reciting rote verses and trying to keep track of where I was on the rosary. Wearing rosary beads sounds like a counter culture move against the church if you ask me. Rosaries are almost sacred.

> Wearing rosary beads sounds like a counter culture move against the church if you ask me. Wearing a rosary around the neck is common and accepted in some Catholic cultures and frowned upon in others. There is no general Catholic religious objection to it, it is just a matter of local cultural practice. (Publicly flaunting it while engaging in scandalous behavior is more generally frowned upon, of course, as heaping…

I'm not objecting to wearing them, my old biases object to them being worn as a fashion element. They are a tool, not a sign of your personal faith. The only people I ever saw with Rosaries every day were the Nuns who used them every day, even the priests would dress down on occasion.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#519

Post by ticviking »

undersuit wrote: post #422
Dig1t wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>LGBTQ is a minority I mean yes, physically they are a minority. Culturally, they are incredibly mainstream. There are examples everywhere. There are tons of big movies and TV shows featuring gay people coming out. _Every_ company changes their logo during pride month. Look at the Apple Watch or iPhone, they come preloaded with Pride wallpapers and watch faces, they produce pride bands for the watch, which sell very…

Trads never left. They are the majority.

How many Christians do you know who fast, or pray the daily hours? How many who are devout enough to respond when someone takes the name of the Lord in vain? As a cultural stream "Trads" are definitely distinct from Conservative Protestantism or the evangelical movement.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#520

Post by teachrdan »

Dig1t wrote: post #492
teachrdan wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly can't tell if this is satire or not. Catholics make up 23% of the US population. How can wearing rosary beads be non-conformist when Catholics are the single largest denomination in America? An astonishing SIX Supreme Court justices are Catholic. Was there ever a time a countercultural group had that kind of representation in government? Were there ever six justices who were hippies, or beatniks, or hobos?…

Yes you are right that there are a lot of catholic people, we are talking about _culture_. How many TV shows, movies, or songs have come out in the last 10 years that featured Catholics in any way or catholic imagery, or even just general traditional values? Like maybe 1? How many TV shows, movies, and songs have come out featuring gay people or gay culture? A huge number. Compare this state to the 60's when the hipp…

There is no contradiction in what I'm saying. It's the norm for media, especially film, to be produced about marginal groups. How many movies are made about mercenaries or hit men or fathers with "a certain set of skills" whose daughters are Taken? A huge number.

The opposite is also true. How may TV shows, movies, or songs have come out in the last 10 years that featured a guy working in a cubicle making Excel spreadsheets all day? Were they the cultural mainstream? The answer is obviously no.

> We were never talking about representation in government

Who wasn't? Culture isn't just what's streaming on Netflix. It's what people live every day of their lives. Hippies in the 60s weren't counterculture because they were making memes. They were counterculture because they were creating communities that were counter to the mainstream culture of the rest of the country -- communal rather than individualistic, based on chosen family rather than biological family, in pursuit of enlightenment rather than material success, etc.

>If you want to have an honest conversation about religious representation in government you will very quickly be labeled an anti-semite.

There it is! The anti-semitic dog whistle that is the foundation of so much "trad" identity. Literally 100% of US presidents are Christian but somehow it's the Jews who are in control of everything. And if everything is degenerate and wrong, then Jews are the ones promoting a conspiracy to undermine and destroy America.

This is literally the same underpinnings as Nazi Germany. No wonder there is so much overlap between "Trads" and white supremacy.

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