Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

theautopian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

511–520 of 714 posts

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#511

Post by trabant00 »

> if the Level 2 paradigm was flipped, where the driver was always in control, but the semi-automated driving system was doing the monitoring, and was ready to take over [...] but would be less sexy in that the act of driving wouldn’t feel any different

I think this is the the most important point of the article and largely ignored here in the comments who seem to focus mostly on who was to blame for this specific accident.

We know the strengths and weaknesses of both humans and tech at this point in time. Humans are overall better decision makers but aren't 100% focused 100% of the time. Tech gets confused a lot but is never tired or inattentive. So if your goal is safety you let the humans drive but take over in emergency situations when the human is not reacting. Which is what most car manufacturers do right now. Letting the tech drive and expecting the human to provide perfect reaction time every time the tech fails is playing on the weaknesses of both. This is focusing on cool marketing at the expense of safety.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#512

Post by afiori »

r_hoods_ghost wrote: post #398
suslik wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just solve the problem by banning motorcycles. Motorcycles should stay on race tracks where they belong, not on foggy roads with tired commuters. Same with normal bikes, by the way: cycling on the same road with fast-driving cars should not be an actual phenomenon. I cycle to work every day, and love it, but would never do it if there wasn't a separate bike lane.

Or you could prosecute dangerous drivers who hit pedestrians for manslaughter / attempted manslaughter and work on the assumption that the person I charge of the most dangerous vehicle has a duty of care towards other road users and if they don't discharge that duty they shouldn't be allowed to drive.

Prosecuting bad drivers is very important, at the very least in a "Strike One to Educate One Hundred" way.

On the other hand the reason for most car accidents is bad road design, especially designs that encourage high speeds.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#513

Post by tinus_hn »

pigtailgirl wrote: post #509
tinus_hn wrote: post #400

In other news, no car has ever seized up and stopped at an inconvenient moment before Tesla made this horrible mistake, and keeping a safe distance would not be necessary if it weren’t for those dang automated drivers. Now get off my lawn!

-- had an engine seize up in college on the highway - doesn't just grind to a stop - still have a lot of control and speed - and - didn't change lanes into the left lane - i moved to the right slowly with my hazard lights on --

It’s great that you were lucky, others are not. And it’s not a big deal, it’s a fact of life. Except when it’s a Tesla, of course.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#514

Post by scoopertrooper »

Alex3917 wrote: post #84
somethoughts wrote: post #65

I think what's interesting here is it's likely the first instance where Tesla FSD has been involved in an accident which affected other drivers. [Edit] From the video the Tesla is making a lane change and stopping simultaneously which means there could be a case of the Tesla FSD/driver doing a unsafe lane change.[1] Most of the time FSD just wrecks the Tesla itself or injures the driver of the Tesla (i.e. running int…

> I think what's interesting here is it's likely the first instance where Tesla FSD has been involved in an accident which affected other drivers. In a pileup like this it's basically never the fault of the front car, unless maybe if they are purposely causing the accident for insurance fraud or something. Maybe the driver will get cited for failing to maintain the minimum speed, but legally this isn't much different…

It looks like the Tesla driver will be at least as fault for the collision with the car behind it. However, it seems the subsequent collisions were caused by fleshy human drivers driving unsafely. I don't know much about traffic law, so I'm unsure how responsibility for the overall pileup will be divided.

From the police report:

> V-1 made an unsafe lane change (21658(a) California Vehicle Code) and was slowing to a stop directly into V-2's path of travel. This caused the front of V-2 to collide into the rear of V-1 (4.0.1. #1). P-2 did not have enough time to perceive and react to V-1's lane change.

V-1 = The Tesla

> P-4 observed V-3 stopping and applied V-4's brakes. V-3 came to a stop to the rear of V-2. P-5 observed V-4 stopping and applied V-5's brakes. As V4 slowed down, P-4 steered V4 towards the #2 lane. Due to P-5's unsafe speed for stopped traffic ahead (22350 California Vehicle Code), P-S failed to safely stop behind V-4 and V-3. The front of V-5 collided into the rear of V-4 (A.O.L #2). V-4 moved into the #2 lane without colliding into any other vehicles. V-5 came to a stop in the #1 lane after colliding into the rear of V-3 (A.O.L #3).

and it goes on from there...

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23569059-9335-2022-0...

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#515

Post by MengerSponge »

afiori wrote: post #512
r_hoods_ghost wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you could prosecute dangerous drivers who hit pedestrians for manslaughter / attempted manslaughter and work on the assumption that the person I charge of the most dangerous vehicle has a duty of care towards other road users and if they don't discharge that duty they shouldn't be allowed to drive.

Prosecuting bad drivers is very important, at the very least in a "Strike One to Educate One Hundred" way. On the other hand the reason for most car accidents is bad road design, especially designs that encourage high speeds.

Yes! It's also a policy failure to allow vehicles with such high hoods. I'd be okay with requiring a CDL/professional insurance as a compromise

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#516

Post by amelius »

cm2187 wrote: post #407
amelius wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a case of phantom braking, which is illegal. People often forget about the most important traffic rule: it is not allowed to cause an unsafe situation.

If you crash into the car in front of you in your lane, the responsibility is yours both morally and legally. The only car which has a valid excuse is the car immediately following the tesla since the tesla inserted itself into its lane then immediately stopped, not allowing it to build a safety distance.

This is not true. If you cause an unsafe situation, then you are certainly to blame, regardless of other traffic rules that you think may be relevant.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#517

Post by trashtester »

MengerSponge wrote: post #446
mschuster91 wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're woefully unaerodynamic, and emissions standards are pretty lax for them. Still more aerodynamic and fuel efficient than someone riding a full-blown SUV to work solo. > but plenty of motorbikes are actually worse than a compact car and getting close to SUV territory. Not everyone drives a Kawasaki Ninja H2 R with 310 hp or whatever the top record is these days. Per German ADAC, the average motorcycle consume…

They might be worse for emissions that aren't CO2, but this whole discussion is moot. Ebikes could be the actual future.

When measuring the health hazards of motorbikes/mopeds, emissions are a small part.

Part of the reason is that it's so fun to go fast with them.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#518

Post by elcomet »

Articles like this are really annoying, it's just based on some feelings and don't really prove anything. I'm not saying this accident is terrible and shouldn't be investigated of course. And of course Tesla should do better and fix those issues.

> then I’ll see a crash like this, [...] and I realize that, no, people still don’t get it.

That's just an example. You can't make conclusions based on a single example, you need lots of data. Your feelings that this is less safe than regular drivings are not enough to justify your conclusions that L2 is less safe than regular driving. I have the feelings of the opposite (I think it reduces the number of accidents), but I don't know wether this is true. Accidents that were avoided by L2 don't make it in the news, there's a huge selection bias here.

I think this kind of article might be very dangerous, because it makes people more afraid, and if L2 is actually safer on average, then reducing its usage will just increase the number of accidents.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#519

Post by [deleted] »

elcomet wrote: post #518

Articles like this are really annoying, it's just based on some feelings and don't really prove anything. I'm not saying this accident is terrible and shouldn't be investigated of course. And of course Tesla should do better and fix those issues. > then I’ll see a crash like this, [...] and I realize that, no, people still don’t get it. That's just an example. You can't make conclusions based on a single example, you…

[deleted]

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#520

Post by [deleted] »

cm2187 wrote: post #385

From what I can tell, the car behind the tesla didn't crash into the tesla but stopped before. And so did the car behind that one. It is the cars after that that crashed into each others. While automatic cars doing random things is certainly problematic, clearly the cause of the crash here isn't the tesla, it is other cars not respecting minimum safety distances and not able to stop when there is a traffic jam ahead.

[deleted]
Post reply on HN