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Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

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Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#511

Post by jokethrowaway »

sib301 wrote: post #363
skillpass wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - I am worried about taking hospital capacity claims at face value though. From what I've seen, it was common for hospitals to report being overwhelmed even during flu seasons pre-covid. I wouldn't classify that level of 'overwhelmed' worthy of mandates upon society. I don't doubt that during these periods of time hospital resources are strained in some way, but there's a difference between this routine level…

Dude go to a hospital in a populated area during this surge. My wife sat in the waiting room for 3 hours with SEVERE abdominal pain, DURING A PREGNANCY and was unable to be seen. We went home. If she’d had an ectopic pregnancy, she would probably not be here anymore.

Coming from the UK and Italy - 3 hours is nothing. If you're about to die they'll send you to emergency, otherwise you'll have to wait hours. If you're unhappy, pay for a private insurance and get decent service.

Actually I had to go to the hospital (not covid) and it was almost deserted with reception coming to check the desk they were supposed to be attending half an hour after we were supposed to be there. People generally went less to the hospital because of the pandemic (which causes other problems).

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#512

Post by maskil »

tzs wrote: post #30

Something from the NYT mailing list yesterday: > The Covid vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing serious illness. If you’re vaccinated, your chances of getting severely sick are extremely low. Even among people 65 and older, the combination of the vaccines’ effectiveness and the Omicron variant’s relative mildness means that Covid now appears to present less danger than a normal flu. > For the unvaccinated,…

Done with Covid?

Are you aware that vaccines are failing spectacularly with regards to Omicron infection?

Hospitalizations are another story, but this notion of the vaccines ending Covid is just not holding up with new variants.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#513

Post by roody15 »

The Omicron variant has so far shown itself to be milder and overall less dangerous to the vaccinated and unvaccinated. So far it appears to leave patients with good immunity after recovery.

This trend is playing out in the US and western Europe. Ireland has dropped its restrictions .. Denmark also just announced dropping restrictions.

The board member is correct here, despite anyones personal thoughts on covid vaccinations, vaccine requirements etc.. at least for now this latest variant seems to be forcing a change in narrative.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#514

Post by dont__panic »

sib301 wrote: post #363
skillpass wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - I am worried about taking hospital capacity claims at face value though. From what I've seen, it was common for hospitals to report being overwhelmed even during flu seasons pre-covid. I wouldn't classify that level of 'overwhelmed' worthy of mandates upon society. I don't doubt that during these periods of time hospital resources are strained in some way, but there's a difference between this routine level…

Dude go to a hospital in a populated area during this surge. My wife sat in the waiting room for 3 hours with SEVERE abdominal pain, DURING A PREGNANCY and was unable to be seen. We went home. If she’d had an ectopic pregnancy, she would probably not be here anymore.

Ugh, I'm so sorry you had to go through that. For other folks reading this: yes, three hours doesn't sound like that long a wait. But I'm willing to be those felt like the three longest, most stressful hours of your life when your mind is racing with possibilities and fears about the future of your wife and/or baby.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#515

Post by csdvrx »

scarmig wrote: post #388
res0nat0r wrote: post #347

Good article here about "endemic" and the still large problems that portend: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00155-x > The word ‘endemic’ has become one of the most misused of the pandemic. And many of the errant assumptions made encourage a misplaced complacency. It doesn’t mean that COVID-19 will come to a natural end. > In other words, a disease can be endemic and both widespread and deadly. Malaria kil…

Something can be endemic and deadly and still something we accept the consequences of without government imposed restrictions. For example: HIV is something that is now endemic and (still) deadly. And yet we don't go around forcibly shutting down gay bathhouses, bars, and Grindr and implementing condom and prep mandates, even though they would be effective at reducing its spread. And for good reason: it'd be a massiv…

> And yet we don't go around forcibly shutting down gay bathhouses, bars, and Grindr and implementing condom and prep mandates, even though they would be effective at reducing its spread. And for good reason: it'd be a massive (and homophobic) violation of civil liberties

Actually, following some FUD by a now famous doctor, this had a lot of political and popular support back then: https://www.congress.gov/98/crecb/1983/07/14/GPO-CRECB-1983-...

Check page 28, July 14 1983.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#516

Post by xboxnolifes »

Fernicia wrote: post #482
xboxnolifes wrote: post #209

(USA point of view) I feel like given that vaccines do an acceptable job at reducing risk of hospitalization and death, there is only really a few things worth discussing, in relevant order: - Are hospitals actually being overloaded by covid cases to the point of being an issue (according to many, yes. but according to [1] Johns Hopkins, no, or only in some cases?). - Are the unvaccinated actually the majority of the…

> - Are the unvaccinated actually the majority of the covid related cases (as far as I'm aware, yes). They needn't be a majority. The mandate acts to reduce strain on the hospital, so ask whether it achieves that (I think the answer is yes) > - Are unvaccinated hospitalizations significantly worse compared to other personal decisions (diet, exercise, risky hobbies). It is harder to fix these than getting a jab. > - F…

> > - Are the unvaccinated actually the majority of the covid related cases (as far as I'm aware, yes).

> They needn't be a majority. The mandate acts to reduce strain on the hospital, so ask whether it achieves that (I think the answer is yes)

Majority is very important here. If vaccinated and non-vaccinated people were hospitalized at equal rate (or even at a rate where more vaccinated were hospitalized) a vaccine mandate isn't exactly going to do anything.

But I now realize that I gave "vaccine works" as a prerequisite, so this bullet point is redundant.

---

> > - Are unvaccinated hospitalizations significantly worse compared to other personal decisions (diet, exercise, risky hobbies).

> It is harder to fix these than getting a jab.

Likely, but hard to say definitively without data, and I know I don't have such data on hand. I talk about it a bit more in another reply better, but many things are even easier than getting 3 jabs. They only require inaction.

My ultimate question on this point is, why do we accept certain lifestyle injuries but not this? Ease of avoidance is a good reason, but I would like to see it compared to other lifestyle injuries.

---

> > - Finally, what actions, if any, should be taken to correct the hospital load? (nothing, vaccine mandates, accelerated hospital expansion, turning people away, etc)

> An alternative would be to charge unvaccinated people a premium on hospital costs, as I'm sure health insurance providers would be keen to do.

I'm not against such an idea at all if it would solve the problem. The high-level issue is that the unvaccinated are costing the system more money / capacity than the vaccinated, so they should pay for it.

However, there is a lack of capacity, not necessarily a lack of funding. If the unvaccinated are charged more, will they actually have a lesser impact on capacity, or will capacity still be reached just with them paying more money? Which then circles back to needing more capacity. Who pays for the extra capacity is almost a separate discussion in itself.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#517

Post by juiiiced »

yibg wrote: post #404
ifyoubuildit wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This response is actually an example of what I'm talking about. The comment that I replied to was explaining how the segment of the population that is a candidate for giving themselves covid while being high risk is (and has been) shrinking out of existence. Meanwhile, there is a much larger (and growing) cohort that continues to be harrased if they (fairly) decide they don't need these vaccines, and the harrasment i…

How about we do this. For people that can and “should be” vaccinated but don’t by choice due to their own risk assessment, if they catch Covid and need hospital treatment they don’t get it. That way they have their freedom and hospital capacity isn’t put at risk. If the people refusing to get vaccinated are willing to shoulder the risk themselves I have no problems with it.

I agree. This is really the critical point: If you are in a low risk group, but get covid you have no way of knowing whether you will consume hospital resources or not. In that case it's best to get vaccinated if you can to protect others who made need the hospital.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#518

Post by password321 »

beams_of_light wrote: post #314
parkingrift wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Great! The problem is that vaccines don't protect society unless a critical-mass of people are vaccinated. They don't protect society at all. The herd immunity goal flew out the window with Delta and left the galaxy with Omicron. We will not ever eradicate Covid-19 with vaccination. >It ends when the the threat subsides. It should end right now, then. The threat has subsided. We have vaccines and other treatment pro…

Eradication is not the goal. Making sure hospitals aren't overwhelmed with COVID patients is the goal. Catching COVID is potentially dangerous and often times results in long recovery window. Vaccination is harmless and works. The thread will never subside; this is a new virus we will have to live with for the rest of our lives - especially considering we can't seem to get everyone to do the right thing, even with go…

>Vaccination is harmless

Tell that to the increasing number of footballers facing cardiac arrest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_association_footballer...

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#519

Post by skeptical3 »

eli wrote: post #283
tzs wrote: post #30

Something from the NYT mailing list yesterday: > The Covid vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing serious illness. If you’re vaccinated, your chances of getting severely sick are extremely low. Even among people 65 and older, the combination of the vaccines’ effectiveness and the Omicron variant’s relative mildness means that Covid now appears to present less danger than a normal flu. > For the unvaccinated,…

Given the topic of the post, it's funny you didn't mention one measure that does convince holdouts to get vaccinated: mandates. https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/01/22/do-vacci... ( https://archive.fo/g2vHF )

No post body was provided.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#520

Post by iskander »

sib301 wrote: post #363
skillpass wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - I am worried about taking hospital capacity claims at face value though. From what I've seen, it was common for hospitals to report being overwhelmed even during flu seasons pre-covid. I wouldn't classify that level of 'overwhelmed' worthy of mandates upon society. I don't doubt that during these periods of time hospital resources are strained in some way, but there's a difference between this routine level…

Dude go to a hospital in a populated area during this surge. My wife sat in the waiting room for 3 hours with SEVERE abdominal pain, DURING A PREGNANCY and was unable to be seen. We went home. If she’d had an ectopic pregnancy, she would probably not be here anymore.

Similar experience in my family, father-in-law spent 18 hours waiting in a ER. Needs a biopsy and imaging which are taking weeks to get done because, as several doctors have admitted, the hospital is both overwhelmed with Covid patients and short-staffed due to infections among doctors and nurses.
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