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Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

nature.com

511–520 of 837 posts

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#511
post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and we shouldn't engage in censorship of factual information because "people are dying". It's not 'censorship of factual information' for a private service to choose to put health warnings against or delete fact free claims of HCQ as a miracle cure. Indeed "healthy living" supplement hucksters are ridiculed and kicked off platforms on a regular basis, even when some of the claims they make about "healthy living" ha…

> It's not 'censorship of factual information' for a private service to choose to put health warnings against or delete fact free claims of HCQ as a miracle cure. I'm not going to get into the "it isn't censorship if it's a private company" debate. That's a facile argument. Silencing of speech is wrong. Full stop. I'm not debating semantics. If the only way you can rebut an argument is by silencing it, then you lose…

> And science, as a process, depends on the ability of unpopular opinions to exist. Because sometimes, they're right.

Science, as a process, does not depend on the ability of unpopular (or in this case, very popular) opinions to be broadcast to a sufficiently large number of laypeople on a particular channel. HCQ research was carried out despite rather than because Bob from Texas or Luis from Brazil read some drivel about a miracle cure written by a fan of a politician who had touted it as a miracle cure. And yes, it would have been much better if the Surgisphere paper was silenced before rather than after publication.

But I reiterate, the argument that encouragement to buy Invermectin has an inalienable right to appear in my inbox which encouragement to buy Viagra apparently doesn't because this time it's politicians shilling it is completely orthogonal to my original point, which is that people were damaging their health self-administering HCQ long before Surgisphere published or social media started to get nervous. So if we want to understand why Americans are so keen on quack cures and so hostile to stuff that has more scientific evidence behind it, we probably want to start with some very influential people that promoted that attitude, and doubled down on it as being a test of partisan loyalties. Blaming the censors seems at best a distraction and at worst an attempt to to shield the promoters from their responsibility. After all, we had Facebook censorship and ridicule of pseuds (and frequent poorly-communicated changes in public health guidelines) in my country too, but that didn't stop nearly all adults from agreeing to be vaccinated.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#512
post #46

What are the hard truths?

Good question, it appears the writer is praising the Danish gov't for doing the following:

> And Frederiksen clearly acknowledged uncertainty. “We stand on unexplored territory in this situation,” she said. “Will we make mistakes? Yes, we will.”

> Danish health authorities talked clearly about severe, potentially fatal, side effects when they suspended the use of specific vaccines, even though the side effects are extremely rare.

And that is it.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The link you shared is from March 2021 https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volum... From a now-deleted tweet from February 29 2020 https://web.archive.org/web/20200229123317/https://twitter.c... > @Surgeon_General > Seriously people- STOP BUYING MASKS! > They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if healthcare providers can’t get them to care for sick patien…

Yep. The memory-holing is already going strong. In another year, all those "now-deleted" links won't work anymore, and everyone will keep claiming the government never lied, and you'll be a nutter if you claim the government ever said masks don't work. You'll be banned from all forms of conversation, and labeled "alt-right." The techno-utopia is awesome.

The government never said that masks don't work, because "the government" is a thing which does not speak. The former US Surgeon General, Jerome Adams, who was appointed by the former president, claimed that masks don't work in his now famous tweet "STOP BUYING MASKS". Fauci did not say this; Fauci instead said that for several reasons "there’s no reason to be walking around with a mask" at that time. The White House Press Secretary was absent, so there was no comment from the former president's Press Secretary. Which of those voices, or lack of voices, or any other voices, would you say qualify as the statement by "the government"? Unless you're a 2-dimensional South Park "nutter" character, you should realize that "the gubbmint" does not share a single voice, if it has a voice at all.

If you're treating the government as a solitary nebulous entity, then accountability goes out the window. It's important to keep the individuals that make up the government accountable and responsible, as President Biden has with Jerome Adams, who is no longer the Surgeon General. Accountability is also why Fauci still serves as the NIAID Director of the NIH.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#514
post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and we shouldn't engage in censorship of factual information because "people are dying". It's not 'censorship of factual information' for a private service to choose to put health warnings against or delete fact free claims of HCQ as a miracle cure. Indeed "healthy living" supplement hucksters are ridiculed and kicked off platforms on a regular basis, even when some of the claims they make about "healthy living" ha…

> It's not 'censorship of factual information' for a private service to choose to put health warnings against or delete fact free claims of HCQ as a miracle cure. I'm not going to get into the "it isn't censorship if it's a private company" debate. That's a facile argument. Silencing of speech is wrong. Full stop. I'm not debating semantics. If the only way you can rebut an argument is by silencing it, then you lose…

> If the only way you can rebut an argument is by silencing it, then you lose the debate.

This cannot be underscored enough. If you censor criticism of a viewpoint, people won't decide it's right. They will decide it's definitely wrong.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they were open and upfront about limited masks and reserving N95 and other PPE for healthcare workers there was a possibility of a social stigma of individuals buying up and using N95 and PPE. Like how scalpers get the stink eye and angry stares when they take all the toilet paper, hand sanitizer and disinfectant wipes. Sure the masks might not have all gone to the right place but I imagine it would have been bett…

Toilet paper shortage was caused by shift from commercial to residential purchasing, with different packaging/distribution/purchase size characteristics. It's not a convenient item for scalping due to low value per volume (comparing to hundreds of $1K iPhones easily fitting in a car trunk.

One temporary solution would be for businesses to distribute / sell rolls of their no longer needed toilet paper to employees. Employees might not have a compatible dispenser at home, but in a shortage they could put it on a flat surface and peel off as needed. Lack of out of the box thinking...

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#516
post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that to this day people still trot out “4% kill rate” and make their kids wear a mask for a disease a kid isn’t even remotely at risk for… my trust in public health is below zero. Not once have these people done anything to calm people or tell them good news. Not a single time. It is disgusting how horribly these public health “experts” treat us.

> people still trot out “4% kill rate” Which health authority or public health expert is claiming that today and hasn't shared updates with better data (=good news)? Yes, some people still bring that, but that's not because evil experts hide the true data from them.

The “experts” don’t say “4%” but they also don’t even bother to give an actual IFR. Why haven’t they? We’ve known it for quite some time.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are misinterpreting. They lost faith in medical experts. I don't think hes talking about the US system as a whole but instead trusting the advice that vaccines are safe, masks work, etc. Medical advice.

Just so I understand, the one thing about flip flopping on masks cost them to lose faith in all medical experts? Doesn't that seem a little unreasonable? I agree we shouldn't have flip flopped on masks, but I don't think making a whole narrative out of that makes sense.

No, masks aren't the only thing, it's just that it's somehow become the symbol for the whole thing.

But we've got a whole series of documented lies from Fauci. He's admitted to lying about herd immunity numbers [1]. He's had a whole sequence of confrontations with Rand Paul, first claiming that the USA wasn't funding the research there (we were), and then claiming that it wasn't "gain of function" research (it didn't precisely fit the technical definition, but a common sense parsing of the description is that it's exactly what they were doing).

And right from the start, we've got the WHO lying, apparently to cover China's butt. The WHO demonstrably knew that covid-19 could be transmitted between people, and that it was airborne, yet claimed publicly that it had no evidence of either, and went as far as to praise China's response to the outbreak. [2]

[1] https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2020/12/25/dr-fau... [2] https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/14/asia/coronavirus-who-china-in...

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a damn religion at this point. The masks most people wear do basically nothing. Wearing an effective mask (for some value of “effective”) is not comfortable at all!

Just keeping a majority of an infected but not symptomatic persons spit from traveling around the room would seem like a win even if being in the presence of mask wearers being safer is harder to establish than the effecacy of mask wearing and it won't help if those most likely to spread the disease because they won't be careful aren't wearing them. Personally I've found n95 mask's with head straps more comfortable t…

Why not always wear a mask? Why have we decided this one specific illness deserves this level of “safety”?

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in the US have become very good at totally ignoring the argument and just tribalizing the approach to everything. X must be right and how dare you question them as they are part of us. Nothing can be nuanced anymore. Read a twitter thread this morning discussing a father whose daughter was raped in a high school bathroom and then the perpetrator who they did not really make clear if it was someone that was tra…

My interpretation is the the life in the US has been so good that Americans could never imagine what it was like living in 1950's Cuba, 1960's China, 1970's Cambodia, and North Korea. Do people really think that people in those countries were evil or were crazy? The truth is, the people there started with good intentions. They wanted to have equity. They were pained by all kinds of oppression. They genuinely believed…

I am sure that "the people" had good intentions. However, you can be sure that the sociopaths running the show knew perfectly well what they were doing. It's not like Mao wanted to save the people from oppression and ended up screwing everybody by mistake.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#520
post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you make a good point here that someone can be pro-vaccine while being against a mandate. I hadn't thought of it that way. I don't really see many Republicans going out of their way recommending vaccines though, either. Trump got his in secret initially.

Sensor Mitch McConnell: "I’m glad to share that a few minutes ago, I received a booster vaccination for COVID-19." https://www.mcconnell.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2021/9/mcc... You can find plenty more similar statements by Republicans if you bother to look.

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