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France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

reuters.com

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Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#511

Post by dingaling »

Iv wrote: post #484
wayoutthere wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole passenger air travel industry (airlines, aircraft manufacturers, airports, etc) is subsidized because they’re not profitable on their own. But a robust and affordable air travel network is a capability the business world needs to operate our economy. Boeing and Airbus are two of the most heavily subsidized companies in the world, and the airlines themselves aren’t far behind. They’re both high-risk, low-mar…

I don't know about businesses but I also think that international passengers travel is an important part of world peace. Being able to visit other countries and learn about different cultures really brings intolerance and nationalism down. I wish it was mandatory for every student to visit two or three very different countries during their studies. I understand the emissions are problematic and we need to cut them do…

> I wish it was mandatory for every student to visit two or three very different countries during their studies.

That was common in the 80s & 90s but we did it wearing a backpack and hopping on buses and coaches and sleeper trains; air travel was much too expensive back then.

That's in contrast to modern Ryanair-style stag-party 'tourism' where students descend on a city for a few days and then zip back home.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#512

Post by dingaling »

sgjohnson wrote: post #364
gns24 wrote: post #192

The UK already taxes flights in a similar way. Whilst this does feel like progress, it would be much better to tax the fuel instead of the passengers. Virtually all other fuel is taxed, so it's strange that jet fuel is exempt. The problem with taxing passengers instead of fuel include: - it doesn't encourage improving the efficiency of planes - airlines can't fill their planes with really cheap seats, and empty seats…

> - airlines can't fill their planes with really cheap seats, and empty seats seem like a ridiculous waste This has never been true. There is no money in Economy. Almost never has been. Airlines make money off premium cabins and business travellers who book flights a couple of days in advance. Example LHR to LAX return. https://i.imgur.com/SCjndu8.png Fare: £50 One flexible First class return on the exact same flight…

> There is no money in Economy.

Of course there is, there are entire airlines that only offer a single-class cabin. The whole LCC sector in Europe is based around the principle, as are Frontier and Spirit in the USA.

Now you can pay more for early-boarding or more cabin baggage or a flexi ticket but the hard product is the same.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#513

Post by Zak »

presto8 wrote: post #492
rsj_hn wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

International Air Travel is one of the most heavily taxed, if not the most heavily taxed, activity. It's not unusual for the taxes to exceed the ticket price. Here I just looked on kayak for a flight from SFO to Berlin. Here is the price breakdown: Ticket price USD 465.00 Taxes, Fees and charges USD 540.52 --------- International/Domestic Surcharge USD 350.00 APHIS User Fee USD 3.96 Immigration User Fee USD 7.00 Cust…

That international/domestic surcharge looks like an airline imposed charge. Not sure why they do it that way instead of having it in the ticket price. But the actual taxes paid on this ticket are a lot less when that surcharge isn’t included.

It appears that it's sometimes because it's easier in terms of internal accounting for airlines to adjust pricing that way. In other cases, some taxes may be a percentage of the fare, not the surcharge, allowing a lower all-inclusive price with the same amount of profit for the airline.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#514

Post by ian0 »

rsj_hn wrote: post #447
dewey wrote: post #167

Finally. It's really frustrating to see how heavily subsidized airlines, plane fuel and airports are and how big of a tax breaks they get when they come to a city. At the same time people are shamed for buying salad in a plastic bag when the big lever is somewhere completely different. Had the same thought yesterday when I saw: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1148317244893597696

International Air Travel is one of the most heavily taxed, if not the most heavily taxed, activity. It's not unusual for the taxes to exceed the ticket price. Here I just looked on kayak for a flight from SFO to Berlin. Here is the price breakdown: Ticket price USD 465.00 Taxes, Fees and charges USD 540.52 --------- International/Domestic Surcharge USD 350.00 APHIS User Fee USD 3.96 Immigration User Fee USD 7.00 Cust…

$7 / passenger for Immigration, $5 for customs!

Thats insane revenue, you would expect at least a good service from it.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#515

Post by cheerlessbog »

TylerE wrote: post #506
somecontext wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For some context in case anyone is curious: putting together information from various websites suggests that the following is the oldest plane in commercial service today. https://m.planespotters.net/airframe/Boeing/737/5Y-CGV-Zone-... It is a Boeing 737-200 and it has been in service for 43.7 years.

Hardly. There are still DC-3's in commercial operation, and production of those ended in 1942. http://www.buffaloairways.com/ is one operator.

They have two Curtiss C-46 from 1945. Its interesting that its cheaper to continue to pay for the maintenance and fuel than lease something more modern.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#516

Post by cheerlessbog »

conanbatt wrote: post #441
theturtletalks wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, ironically, the same people that want these subsidies argue for less government oversight because the "market will sort itself out."

Sorry but i have never heard a small government person think there should be airplane subsidies in my life.

Many Republicans are in favor of subsidies of industries like Boeing when they are in their district. I expect they would describe themselves as believers in small government.

And let's not resort to the No True Scotsman fallacy ...

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#517

Post by cheerlessbog »

complexmango wrote: post #476
dewey wrote: post #167

Finally. It's really frustrating to see how heavily subsidized airlines, plane fuel and airports are and how big of a tax breaks they get when they come to a city. At the same time people are shamed for buying salad in a plastic bag when the big lever is somewhere completely different. Had the same thought yesterday when I saw: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1148317244893597696

You get less of what you tax, and more of what you subsidize. I guess the French want fewer people visiting their country?

> I guess the French want fewer people visiting their country?

I do not see any evidence that this is their goal. They would consider it an unfortunate side effect of a necessary environmental policy.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#518

Post by cheerlessbog »

hourislate wrote: post #354
zulln wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suppose the Airlines will just pass along any new taxes to the traveling consumer. Well, yeah, but what is the problem with that? The price increase thus decreasing the demand of flights, achieving the goal.

> Well, yeah, but what is the problem with that? Because Airlines seem to be the intended target and not the tourist. I would imagine they would have instituted an airport fee if the tourist was the target. >The price increase thus decreasing the demand of flights, achieving the goal. This could cause a drop in tourist dollars but maybe that's the goal. It seems Europe in general is wary of tourists. Spain has gone s…

They could turn around and spend the revenue to make CDG not suck.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#519

Post by egl2019 »

zrobotics wrote: post #510
dewey wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take-off and landing account for a lot more pollution than a flight in cruising altitude on long trips. That's why we usually talk about the problematic domestic flights where trains are an alternative. There's not really a good alternative for long haul flights. Flights within Europe are not that heavily taxed, otherwise I wouldn't be able to fly Berlin - Brussels for 9 Euros.

Wait, Berlin to Brussels for €9? Good lord, that is far too cheap. For example, the distance is roughly equivalent to Denver-Albuquerque. Kayak's cheapest quote is $119 one way, scheduled 1 month in advance. I knew flights in Europe were cheaper, but how is it possible to operate profitably at that price? Kayak shows $23 for Ryanair Berlin-Brussels. For comparison, I had a vehicle breakdown and needed to take an (awf…

"How is it possible to operate profitably at that price?"

It isn't: Air Berlin, Monarch, Primera, Small Planet, Azur, Cobalt, VLM, PrivatAir, Icelandic carrier WOW.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#520

Post by cheerlessbog »

selectodude wrote: post #458
patd wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t it only cover fuel that is already on board when the plane lands ? And the Chicago Convention seems to have been revised 8 times already (according to Wikipedia) so it’s not set in stone.

It covers fuel on board and fuel leaving the country.

My naive reading is that it prohibits double taxing (taxing fuel already purchased). Are you saying that when fuel my aircraft they ask the destination so they can gauge the tax?
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