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How poverty changes your mindset

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Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#511

Post by thomastjeffery »

pm90 wrote: post #475
thomastjeffery wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure you understood me clearly. I believe taxation is theft, but that that fact is no excuse for allocating spending of tax dollars unwisely. What the Republican Party, and many Libertarians seem to think is that because taxation is theft, anything that depends on taxation is immoral, and therefore taxes are free to be allocated immorally. That conclusion is fallacious, absurd, and malicious. You can disagree…

> I believe taxation is theft, but that that fact is no excuse for allocating spending of tax dollars unwisely. So your position is: Oh its stealing money, but lets spend the stolen money better? > What the Republican Party, and many Libertarians seem to think is that because taxation is theft, anything that depends on taxation is immoral, and therefore taxes are free to be allocated immorally. That conclusion is fal…

> So your position is: Oh its stealing money, but lets spend the stolen money better?

So your position is: If I find the source (taxation) to be unethical, I am not allowed to have any opinion on spending?

My point is that that is absurd.

> But it is not an ideology that they believe in

That is my point: It's a vain representation of ideology that is used as an excuse. You don't need to fight the ideology itself to understand that.

Rather than freaking out every time you read the phase "taxation is theft", maybe you could actually read what I am saying, and understand that we are in violent agreement on every other point.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#512

Post by movedx »

hestipod wrote: post #504
movedx wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're welcome to live a cynical life, walking around thinking everyone is bad and no one wants to truly help.

Man come on. I was explaining why those who suffer long term get bitter and depressed. I used to be healthy and happy and helped others for a living and personally. I was an empathetic person even then and thought I understood how people would respond, but until I lived the need I really didn't. It's not cynicism it's experience and it explains how people get grumpy and hopeless. Ask anyone who has suffered long term…

Can you outline the specifics of my life and what you know about me?

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#513

Post by justaguyhere »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #509
justaguyhere wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After reading through (most of) the comments here, I am genuinely curious what we can do as individuals to help. It is pretty clear that the gov isn't too keen on helping (don't want to get into politics - just one look at the budget cuts is enough to prove this point). So is there anything we can do? Protesting, running for public office etc makes the most sense but I am not built for it. What is the second best thi…

Honestly, I see the biggest problem is that there isn't a clear solution. We have a culture that is trained against this group of people; trained against helping each other succeed, against promoting others' individual liberty. I don't have a one-size-fits-all solution, and that seems to be the only kind this culture will accept. I think an important first step is empathy: understand how people feel stuck and why. Un…

I get what you are saying and I feel the same way. But can't we at least toss some ideas around and see what comes of it? After all, for those in the US, all it takes from doing okay to bad situation is just one illness, hospital bills can screw someone's life faster than anything else. These things can happen to anyone.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#514

Post by shoxty »

bojackstorkman wrote: post #30

I love how when this comes up, it's people either saying "Here was my experience when I was poor in the past." or "Here is what I think about economics or the wording of this article." Don't get me wrong, I know what website I'm on. But in all seriousness, is there room for currently poor people in this discussion?

United States has become a government of corporations, by corporations and they have modeled the country after their image. I think we might have to turn to other organizations for solutions. I'm from Utah, the LDS Church (Mormons) for example have a whole welfare program (that works) for anyone who needs help (no need to be a member or religious). Just walk into any local church, ask to see the bishop and tell him you need help. The bishop can hand you money (no joke), provide housing options, food, jobs, medical care, etc. No strings attached.

Here is an article:

http://www.economist.com/node/988818

And a video on it:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/2016/06/24/mormon-...

Find a meeting house. Just tell a bishop you need help and he'll hook you up:

https://www.lds.org/maps/meetinghouses/

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#515

Post by jjeaff »

maksimum wrote: post #280
jjeaff wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could call it corporate welfare. Or you could consider the 3 to 4% profit margins these companies have and assume that they might not sustain that number of employees at a higher wage.

This comment implies that these companies going out of business would be a bad thing. In the short term, definitely. But jobs are just means to an end for most people. Why can't government aim to simply provide those ends? The obvious counterargument is that the free market is more efficient. But the US government has shown itself to be very capable in providing some services to the entire country. The military has d…

Hilarious that you use the word "efficient" and then in the next sentence make the claim that the US military has done a great job at keeping the country safe. Yes, they do a good job. But the US military is one of the most bloated, over-funded organizations in human history.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#516

Post by jjeaff »

MrLeap wrote: post #179
jjeaff wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there's a difference. That company wasting $50k is the equivalent of a poor person buying the brand name bread instead of store brand. Not a life altering decision. Make that a $5m purchase and the higher ups in the company will probably spend a great deal of time weighing the pros and cons. I have seen people in fire situations get a one time windfall of $8,000 dollars and spend all of it for a down payment on a…

As income inequality increases, relative percentage comparisons like this become more infuriating than comforting. The more money you have, the dumber you can be with it and still be guaranteed survival. At a certain level of poverty, you have to operate at peak financial efficiency to live a mean lifespan. 50,000$ properly spent could change the course of human history. It could supply the nearby treatment center fo…

You act like spending $50k on something you don't need is the equivalent of lighting the cash on fire. That money goes back into the economy. It provides jobs, it increases money velocity. For the economy as a whole, it's really good that the wealthy or large companies aren't super frugal with their money. After all, someone has a business employing people to make custom leather interiors for private jets, when the standard interior (or first class commercial) will do just fine.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#517

Post by jjeaff »

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #171
jjeaff wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there's a difference. That company wasting $50k is the equivalent of a poor person buying the brand name bread instead of store brand. Not a life altering decision. Make that a $5m purchase and the higher ups in the company will probably spend a great deal of time weighing the pros and cons. I have seen people in fire situations get a one time windfall of $8,000 dollars and spend all of it for a down payment on a…

Simply isn't true-if that were the case companies that make millions would never go bankrupt-yet they do. Why? According to you, they'd spend a great deal of time weighing pros and cons... The fact is you can't always weigh pros and cons and always get a positive outcome. There are many poor people that will always be poor-but entire industries have spent decades making decisions weighing pros and cons and completely…

I'm sure it does apply to a great deal of the poor. My comment was simply that some people make terrible financial decisions. Are you implying that no one is poor due to their own decisions? It's all just things outside their control?

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#518

Post by pnutjam »

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #345
hycaria wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you have access to libraries ?

One problem for me, living in Denmark, is that all the books at the library are in Danish. I prefer to read books in their original language, or at least in an English or German translation, which are usually markedly superior to the Danish translations. If I want a book in English, I either have to special order it at the library and wait for a week to get it, or I have to buy it myself.

Ebooks via irchighway.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#519

Post by hestipod »

movedx wrote: post #512
hestipod wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man come on. I was explaining why those who suffer long term get bitter and depressed. I used to be healthy and happy and helped others for a living and personally. I was an empathetic person even then and thought I understood how people would respond, but until I lived the need I really didn't. It's not cynicism it's experience and it explains how people get grumpy and hopeless. Ask anyone who has suffered long term…

Can you outline the specifics of my life and what you know about me?

I just wanted to answer the "why angry" question above. I have a LOT of relevant experience about this issue as both a provider and a victim. I just wanted to share that experience and explain the common behaviors. I don't want conflict and will back away and apologize if I offended you. I didn't downvote you above either in case that's added to it. I can't downvote at all anyway due to my low karma.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#520

Post by coolaliasbro »

ams6110 wrote: post #140
megy wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Minimum wage only really encourages No, it also means those people are paid a liveable wage, as opposed to a pittance.

Depends on one's definition of "livable wage." Minimum wage and "decent standard of living" are often conflated but minimum wage was not imposed and has never been intended to provide that. It's always been a wage that was at or slightly above the federal poverty line. The lowest minimum wage I remember hearing about as a kid was $1.50/hr. I thought that sounded like a lot of money at the time, but I probably was not…

True, but minimum wage work typically isn't full-time. That link didn't work for me, but are those numbers inflation-adjusted?
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