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Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

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Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#511
post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the discrepancy between American women and immigrant women is interesting. I'm not sure we can conclude from the given evidence that the difference is reduced impediments. It could be that that the increased economic opportunity (or potential immigration benefits) makes up for other things.

I agree the increased economic opportunity could very well be the primary factor, but why is this not enough of a factor for white American women? Or are there other factors in raising a child in an economically stable society lead to more "do what you want, my child, regardless of your gender"?

> ...why is this not enough of a factor for white American women?

Working as an engineer in America is a bigger jump in economic opportunity for someone in India than for someone in America. Also, it's likely that Indians are better informed about what the pay for top notch engineers is these days. I suspect the average American underestimates what coding pays by quite a bit.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I desperately want make male childcare workers for my children. I honestly could careless about women in tech. Installing a more even view of gender on our kids will prob do a lot more good for women in tech in the long term than any amount of screaming now.

I've known of at least one child care/early education facility that employee fairly equal numbers. It's interesting how some kids (male and female) just respond better to men.

Do tell me where in the country is this daycare located at....

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#513
post #242

A common criticism by each four of the female engineers is how the memo effected them in their job and how they had to prove themselves afterward. This strongly reminds me of about a case a year ago when a kindergarten teacher was tried and charged for rape against several children. After a lot of media attention, many male teachers all over the nation reported to constantly having prove to parents and fellow female…

If you/anyone would like to watch an exceptional narrative based on this exact premise, you have to see The Hunt w/ Mads Mikkelsen [0]

It really sums up this issue well and gave me lots to think about.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunt_(2012_film)

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice both statements have the same outcome. Hiring managers aren't omniscient.

Yes, there's no way to say either of those statements to a member of a given group and not offend that person.

I can understand this. But things can be offensive and still be true. It's a possibility. I'm not particularly fond of pointing out, or even researching, possible differences between groups of people; however, the insistence on the opposite, when it's not perceived as backed up by substantial proofs, ends up provoking a response from those who value truth at least as much as harmony.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#515
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best explanation you will get is from a medical doctor. They will explain to you how there are multiple sexes. Gender is not biological so there is no biological explanation. For people who are downvoting me and are either too lazy to talk to a doctor or use Google: Fine, here are some links. Please educate yourselves about simple biology you should have learned in school. https://www.quora.com/Scientifically-how…

Would you please not break the HN guidelines by (a) arguing snarkily and superciliously or (b) going on about downvotes? Trainwrecks though these recent threads have been, we're still trying for a higher standard of discussion on HN, and comments like this one make take us all in the wrong direction. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Someone posts an ignorant comment. I provide a relevant, actually helpful and fact-based reply and get downvoted. So I get pissed off, say something pissy, and then provide a ton of supporting evidence in response. But it doesn't affect the votes, and probably hasn't changed any minds at all.

Comments are the problem if you find civility more important than rationality.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#516
post #126
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lets assume that we're in an alternative universe where the document was never leaked. The document still did harm. Just read this quote from the posted article- > When I walk into my job at a tech company, how do I know which of my colleagues thinks I’m an outlier among women versus someone who was hired because I’m female that doesn’t deserve the job they have? How do I prove myself to people one way or another? Th…

The thoughts of one twenty-something engineer posted to an internal message board (for these kinds of discussions I might add) does not create a hostile workplace or harm Google in any way. Basically, in any other context we expect people who have vastly differing views to be able to put them aside and work together. The only exception to this rule seems to be around leftist issues, where if you disagree you are out…

> You would expect, for example, the Jewish people and the Islamic people at a company to work together.

No one wrote a memo claiming that Google hires too many Jews who don't meet the same quality bar due to diversity efforts.

No one wrote a memo claiming Google needs to have mandatory anti-terrorist training because they've recruited a lot of Muslims lately (putting aside the fact that white christian terrorists are far more likely to be your cause of death in the USA).

>Basically, in any other context we expect people who have vastly differing views to be able to put them aside and work together.

Yeah and the way this works is not to bring up potentially offensive or sensitive topics except with coworkers you know really well. When you do bring it up acknowledge other people's viewpoints and ask lots of questions instead of making grand pronouncements.

All workplaces are political. Software development is about working with people and that is inherently a political activity. Took me a very long time to realize that but it is 100% true. The quicker you accept it the further you will go in your career.

>The idea that toleration for one memo form a nobody employee marks an entire company as unwelcome is insane. This zero tolerance attitude is a recipe for disaster.

What if his memo was arguing that black people aren't suited to be engineers period?

What if his memo argued that black people should be sent back to Africa and that the USA should be for white people only? What if he said he only believes this should be the law but so long as it isn't the law we must respect that and treat people equally until the law is changed?

Should Google "tolerate" someone being openly racist simply because they haven't called for violence?

Let's make this even more abstract: what if an employee openly states they think the company is evil and they disagree with the entire mission and direction of the company? Do you really think they won't spread cynicism and negativity? Do you really think they can be effective? Is there really no risk to morale?

Even if he were completely correct (he wasn't) by doing such a sorry ham-fisted job he made himself a liability. Even if he only angered or offended 10 other engineers that alone is reason enough to get rid of him. Hiring and training engineers is expensive.

Corporations are not free speech zones. If you become a liability the company will drop you like a hot-potato and don't you ever forget it.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#517
On a side note, I would like to thank the HN mods for allowing this discussion to take place. Previous attempts at discussion were quickly silenced by flagging, and while it's a little weird that a piece on YCombinator just happens to be the sole exception, I'm glad that an exception was made. These kinds of discussions are difficult but necessary, critical to the process of gaining a greater understanding of those we disagree with. I hope we're able to keep having these discussions going forward.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#518
post #63

Why has this topic exploded like it did now especially in the software engineering context? Whatever talent or affinity to abstract and inanimate things we do or don't assume being correlated with gender, isn't software engineering just a lighter version, compared to mathematics and physics? Did math and physics communities already have their internal crisis/debate on these things, perhaps a decade or two ago? Or hav…

If you're doing pure math, it's FAR more objective who's good at it and who isn't.

Also, people do it for interest, and not for status or the money, so it's less political.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've known of at least one child care/early education facility that employee fairly equal numbers. It's interesting how some kids (male and female) just respond better to men.

Do tell me where in the country is this daycare located at....

http://hilltopcc.com/

Great place.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#520
post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Better-performing men are being overlooked in favor of worse-performing women/minorities." That sentence is backed if there is a correlation between genetics and skills. > this has absolutely no correlation with performance if gender does not have correlation with performance, why do we split sports into male and female? Why physical strength, endurance is related with biology and the mind is not? when the brain i…

The physical is different from the mental. Are you saying women are less mentally capable? I can't tell but this is basically exactly why women feel legitimizing this line of discussion is unproductive.

> The physical is different from the mental.

Why? Can you probe it? Most researchers I read says the opposite.

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