Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

511–520 of 805 posts

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#511

Post by warcher »

jdmichal wrote: post #269
accountface wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're trying to become too big to fail, but aren't quite there yet. Essentially they're undercutting all competitors by artificially keeping fares very low and subsidizing drivers. Subsidies were the primary source of their enormous financial losses in 2016. Once the competition is completely gone (local cabs, and Lyft in some areas), then they can stop subsidizing themselves and basically hold a monopoly. It's the…

More or less Redbox' strategy too, from what I can tell. Prices have been creeping up ever since the major competition (Blockbuster et al) dropped out of the market. And I suspect it's not because the costs to run machines has been increasing...

I imagine a great deal of it is the studios increasing their take. This has been a perennial problem for Spotify and other licensees of other media content. Netflix rolls their own now.

Really, it's hard to imagine a future for Redbox in ten years. Even the convenience of a vending machine movie store is nothing next to me not even getting off the couch.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#512

Post by TeMPOraL »

dnautics wrote: post #317
dredmorbius wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of corporations have done similar or eqivalent actions.

OK. No corporation has nuked two cities full of civilians.

Like if nuking was the worst thing the US did fighting Japan. Have you heard about firebombing?

That said, plenty of corporations abused and killed innocent people en masse. Some even had their own standing armies to occupy territory.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#513

Post by TeMPOraL »

snappyTertle wrote: post #369
quirkot wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber was always too shady to be justifiably plucky

Uber was justifiably shady. They had to get around outdated laws that protects an outdated medium of transportation.

No, they simply went around laws that governed their market in order to outcompete other providers, and they are pretty smug about it. They never discriminated between laws that are obviously obsolete and laws that are still important.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#514

Post by tyingq »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #430
xg15 wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a distinction between staying passive and not helping an investigation (the drugs example) - and actively deterring the investigation (the flight example). That's a valid distinction to make, however given how much development effort companies like Uber and VW invested in their tools, I think those are clear cases of active deferring.

I'm not a lawyer, but I think you are making the wrong distinction. Fleeing a police officer is explicitly illegal, I believe the crime is resisting arrest or something equivalent. Actively telling all your hooker friends to stay home because the cops are out is not illegal. Nor is it illegal to say "oh hi there officer" before your hooker friend propositions a cop. That's basically what Uber did.

It's closer to them saying, "Yes, sure...I'm happy to take money for sex...wait right here for a while", and then hiding.

Which could be obstruction.

If the app told them they were banned, it would be closer to your analogy. But, it shows fake cars circling about that never pick you up. It's actively deceiving law enforcement

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#515

Post by warcher »

CaptSpify wrote: post #422
rrdharan wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious, what phone are you using where Uber works and Lyft doesn't? I actually agree with the OPs statement as it applies to customers (at least when there's a reasonable alternative). I live in NYC so it was pretty easy for me - I deleted the app and switched to using Lyft.

Well, that's complicated but... I currently use android, and lyft won't work without permanent access to my location and contacts, which I consider unacceptable. I'm supposed to get the ubuntu phone in about a week, and afaik, there's no lyft client for that. There is an uber webpage, m.uber.com or something that should work with it though. This is all untested on my new phone, so I may be incorrect.

hahaha

Man, I knew there were gonna be some libertarians on this thread.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#516

Post by avehn »

jlarocco wrote: post #425
ForHackernews wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Corporate citizens have an obligation to obey the laws of the jurisdictions in which they operate. If they find the laws unacceptable, they should lobby to have them changed.

I agree they have an obligation to obey the law. I disagree that they should lobby to change it. I understand that realistically that is what they will do, but I don't think it's the ethically correct thing. Laws are in place to benefit all of society, they shouldn't be changed on behalf of specific corporations, regardless of how much money the "donate".

Laws are in place to benefit those in power not "all of society," as anyone who does not benefit from them can attest to. And I agree, corporations cannot be allowed to change the laws to suit them.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#517

Post by iamcasen »

Digory wrote: post #304

Of all the things Uber is accused of this week, I'm pretty sure this one is the least concerning. It seems to involve the ethical dilemma of a radar detector. Speed limits are about public safety, too, but speed traps are usually about money. Ride-sharing regulations might be about safety, but Uber 'stings' seem to be about hurting drivers (not Uber) and preserving the value of taxi medallions. If the police want inf…

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. Seems like a waste of an article.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#518

Post by jessaustin »

blackguardx wrote: post #431
Karunamon wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should everyone get to decide what laws to follow? You act as if they don't already. Society works pretty well anyways.

Tell that to the millions of Americans in prison. How did that work out for them?

That example is supposed to inspire us to respect the law more? You need more practice at this rhetoric thing...

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#519

Post by wheelerwj »

jfoutz wrote: post #263
us0r wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not a popular opinion but I find this entire thing pure genius. >I couldn't find a good source, but it doesn't seem like that's something a CC merchant would have access to. Do they really get to see that? The first 6 digits of a credit card can identify the issuing bank (BIN number - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_card_number ). If you ask your merchant they can readily provide you and up to date list.…

I agree. It's genius in a Lex Luthor kind of way. If I understood the full scope of the application, I like to think i'd decline to work on that. It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. There's a big difference between keeping secrets for market advantage and to evade the law. In the first case, I want…

if they are doing that to people they don't want to ride, doesn't it make sense they are doing this with riders?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#520

Post by wheelerwj »

jfoutz wrote: post #263
us0r wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not a popular opinion but I find this entire thing pure genius. >I couldn't find a good source, but it doesn't seem like that's something a CC merchant would have access to. Do they really get to see that? The first 6 digits of a credit card can identify the issuing bank (BIN number - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_card_number ). If you ask your merchant they can readily provide you and up to date list.…

I agree. It's genius in a Lex Luthor kind of way. If I understood the full scope of the application, I like to think i'd decline to work on that. It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. There's a big difference between keeping secrets for market advantage and to evade the law. In the first case, I want…

if they are doing that to people they don't want to ride, doesn't it make sense they are doing this with riders?
Post reply on HN