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Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

theguardian.com

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Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#501

Post by ianm218 »

mschuster91 wrote: post #289
ianm218 wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump-like behavior isn't the inevitable result of the US System though. We could've had another 20 presidents in a row who didn't go and break the norm of maintaining global alliances and not threatening to invade our neighbors and closest allies constantly. So it's relevant to ask if this would still be happening without Trumps antics, even isolationists like JD Vance wouldn't force our allies hands like this.

> We could've had another 20 presidents in a row who didn't go and break the norm of maintaining global alliances and not threatening to invade our neighbors and closest allies constantly. US Presidents and other influential leaders, particularly Republicans, breaking any and all norms when it suited them has always been a thing. 'member Watergate? Moscow's Bitch McConnell? Bush Sr invading Iraq? Bush Jr invading Afg…

Eh that is just general rot, Trumps brand is a more acute rot.

He is brazenly corrupt and petulant in foreign policy in a way we haven’t seen before.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#502

Post by bawolff »

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #473
lostlogin wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does Trump sucking up to Putin fit into this? What problem is that solving?

bawolff stated: >Ukraine was essentially invaded because they became too friendly with NATO (and hence america). Wouldn't this theory predict that if NATO/USA becomes hostile to Ukraine, the invasion will cease? According to bawolff's worldview, Trump's foreign policy will address the root cause, no? They should be supporting Trump.

In my world view, yes, Ukraine firmly returning to the russian sphere of influence, perhaps even agreeing to become a puppet state of russia, would stop the invasion.

Of course Ukraine does not want that, hence war. Surrendering is always a way to gain peace, but most countries do not view such a peace as worth the cost.

Ultimately the war continues because USA is not the only western country in existence and the rest of the west is still willing to provide support sufficient for Ukraine to keep fighting.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#503

Post by Paradigma11 »

asdff wrote: post #178
khriss wrote: post #30

I can understand why this change happened. Even if American equipment is superior, there is a lot of value to not depending on a supposed 'ally' which * Arbitrarily slapped high tariffs on all goods from Canada while exempting Russia and Belarus. * Threatened to take over the country by force. * Officially suspended the Permanent Joint Board on Defense between US and Canada because of criticism of US foreign policy b…

What is stopping the Swedes from electing a jackass? They seem smart for now? It happens in Europe too. All these weaknesses are liable for any country in a democratic model where executive is controlled via popular vote. Population is trivial to manipulate. This is the new world. Running to Sweden doesn't change the underlying issue of the ease of manipulating an electorate using technological affordances to capture…

I do think first past the post is a big part of the problem. Combined with primaries dominated by the most radical parts of the population you have the recipe for very unhinged results.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#504

Post by mopsi »

bawolff wrote: post #502
0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

bawolff stated: >Ukraine was essentially invaded because they became too friendly with NATO (and hence america). Wouldn't this theory predict that if NATO/USA becomes hostile to Ukraine, the invasion will cease? According to bawolff's worldview, Trump's foreign policy will address the root cause, no? They should be supporting Trump.

In my world view, yes, Ukraine firmly returning to the russian sphere of influence, perhaps even agreeing to become a puppet state of russia, would stop the invasion. Of course Ukraine does not want that, hence war. Surrendering is always a way to gain peace, but most countries do not view such a peace as worth the cost. Ultimately the war continues because USA is not the only western country in existence and the res…

This is an utterly naive take. Russia would in that case forcibly conscript from Ukraine's population for further westward invasions, which serves the purpose of exterminating the local male population to suppress resistance and make room for Russian settlers. We already saw this during the initial invasion in 2014 and the forcible conscription early in the full-scale invasion in 2022.

Russia's ambitions are laid out in the ultimatum presented in 2021.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#505

Post by mopsi »

znort_ wrote: post #499
mopsi wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) has established that there was no genuine separatism in Eastern Ukraine in 2014. From the get-go, these were operatives of Russian military and special services, or people under their direct control. Girkin, one of the main leaders of Russian forces in Ukraine, has confirmed the same: there was no grassroots action; it was them who started the war in 2014. Removing insignia f…

without even commenting the evidence considered (mainly 'osint' claims) that ruling completely disregards the right of donbas to self-determination (wether organized or not). it was clearly a political ruling. you know, as an european over sixty that actually voted to join the eu i have long learned that ... european courts are full of shit, as are most of the institutions of the "international rules based order" btw…

  >  that ruling completely disregards the right of donbas to self-determination
Because there are no grounds for it. The right to self-determination is the right of an ethnicity to self-govern. The people of Donbas are not a distinct ethnicity, but almost entirely either Ukrainians or Russians. That's a very clear-cut case.

  >   if donbas didn't really want to secede (or didn't know how)
There was no secession movement. Opinion polls placed secession in the "fringe" category. More people in Texas support secession than did in the eastern regions of Ukraine.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#506

Post by mschuster91 »

ianm218 wrote: post #501
mschuster91 wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We could've had another 20 presidents in a row who didn't go and break the norm of maintaining global alliances and not threatening to invade our neighbors and closest allies constantly. US Presidents and other influential leaders, particularly Republicans, breaking any and all norms when it suited them has always been a thing. 'member Watergate? Moscow's Bitch McConnell? Bush Sr invading Iraq? Bush Jr invading Afg…

Eh that is just general rot, Trumps brand is a more acute rot. He is brazenly corrupt and petulant in foreign policy in a way we haven’t seen before.

> He is brazenly corrupt and petulant in foreign policy in a way we haven’t seen before.

Oh, definitely (although I'd say Bush's WMD lies regarding Iraq come pretty damn close).

But my point was... when the entire foundation and basement are rotting, eventually there will be pests exploiting that. If it wasn't Trump, the Tea Party and rabid Evangelical crowd would most likely have found another puppet.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#507

Post by bawolff »

mopsi wrote: post #504
bawolff wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my world view, yes, Ukraine firmly returning to the russian sphere of influence, perhaps even agreeing to become a puppet state of russia, would stop the invasion. Of course Ukraine does not want that, hence war. Surrendering is always a way to gain peace, but most countries do not view such a peace as worth the cost. Ultimately the war continues because USA is not the only western country in existence and the res…

This is an utterly naive take. Russia would in that case forcibly conscript from Ukraine's population for further westward invasions, which serves the purpose of exterminating the local male population to suppress resistance and make room for Russian settlers. We already saw this during the initial invasion in 2014 and the forcible conscription early in the full-scale invasion in 2022. Russia's ambitions are laid out…

I think that possibility agrees with my take.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#508

Post by poiuyt098 »

xethos wrote: post #40
866-RON-0-FEZ wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, consider that the smaller Saab better fits the mission profile for Canada, and may be cheaper to operate, all the while The Guardian is furiously beating off trying to turn this into a bigger story than it really is.

Cheaper to operate and mission-fit (debatable) is one thing, but the real question is: "Would this have happened without the US president's antics?"

yes. in 2015 trudeau ran a campaign on cancelling the F35 purchase

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning...

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#509

Post by poiuyt098 »

khriss wrote: post #30

I can understand why this change happened. Even if American equipment is superior, there is a lot of value to not depending on a supposed 'ally' which * Arbitrarily slapped high tariffs on all goods from Canada while exempting Russia and Belarus. * Threatened to take over the country by force. * Officially suspended the Permanent Joint Board on Defense between US and Canada because of criticism of US foreign policy b…

A lot of blame-trump-copium, itt

this has been happening before anyone even thought trump would run: in 2015 trudeau ran on cancelling the f35 purchase. So what did obama do to canadians?

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#510

Post by znort_ »

mopsi wrote: post #505
znort_ wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

without even commenting the evidence considered (mainly 'osint' claims) that ruling completely disregards the right of donbas to self-determination (wether organized or not). it was clearly a political ruling. you know, as an european over sixty that actually voted to join the eu i have long learned that ... european courts are full of shit, as are most of the institutions of the "international rules based order" btw…

> that ruling completely disregards the right of donbas to self-determination Because there are no grounds for it. The right to self-determination is the right of an ethnicity to self-govern. The people of Donbas are not a distinct ethnicity, but almost entirely either Ukrainians or Russians. That's a very clear-cut case. > if donbas didn't really want to secede (or didn't know how) There was no secession movement. O…

> The right to self-determination is the right of an ethnicity to self-govern

there isn't really a clear definition of what constitutes "a people". etnicity might be a common trait but it doesn't have to. basically if all or a considerable majority in a territory want's to self-govern, the un charter recognizes that right. in practice this right has never been honored unless these people found a way to enforce it.

> There was no secession movement

oh, there was.

prior to 2014 there was a consistent history of voting pro-russian parties, like the "party of regions". as early as in the 90s the "interfront of donbas" was advocating for regional autonomy, federal structure, recognition of russian as an official language and consultative referenda were held showing consistent support. kiev obviously ignored all this, but there was clear a will for self-govern and attachment to russia.

indeed not secession outright. secession is a bold move. that happened immediately after the coup in 2014, because all these people felt betrayed and threatened (and with good reason). excuse me if they weren't as orgnaized as the eu would demand. one irony of that eu ruling is not only that it fails to consider the right to self-determination, but that it recognizes the ukranian government as the administrator of donbas completely obviating the fact that that was an ilegitimate government, installed by a foreign power (we have victoria nuland on record reciting her staff picks for that) after ousting the elected government, that then immediately started to exert discrimination against culturally russian ukranians, particularly in donbas. it all went to hell form there.

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