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Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

reuters.com

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Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#501

Post by nilamo »

closewith wrote: post #326
BryantD wrote: post #272

Ireland has already provided substantial benefits to artists — income from art is exempt from income tax up to a certain level. Society has not disintegrated. Speculation and anecdotes are not terribly useful but my Irish author friend is not from a rich family, nor is she well-off, but she’s able to support her husband and child in a smaller Irish city by dint of writing several books a year and stressing a lot. I d…

> Society has not disintegrated. Obviously not because of this income scheme and not complete disintegration, but Irish society is under extreme strain from housing pressures, rising living costs, and growing polarisation that is tearing at social cohesion. It's frustrating to see funds allocated to this scheme when health, housing, transport, etc are all failing apart.

Why fix one problem, when another problem also exists?

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#502

Post by miroljub »

danparsonson wrote: post #457
miroljub wrote: post #453

Everyone is talking about basic income as an experiment and wondering about its impact on productivity and human behavior. And everyone talks about hypothetical scenarios and a need for massive tests, without realizing that we already have a massive test data about basic income. There's a huge group of people in western countries that has received unconditional basic income for decades, without any requirements. No q…

You'd need to be more specific - who/what is this huge group of people you're referring to?

> You'd need to be more specific - who/what is this huge group of people you're referring to?

I already explained why I don't want to say it aloud in this context. Your guess is as good as anyone's.

> ... as a society, we have decided not to talk about it so we are not called racists or far right.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#503

Post by squigz »

dontwannahearit wrote: post #429
plastic-enjoyer wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a fairly common argument, but I have yet to see any evidence to support it. In Germany, we are having a similar discussion about the Bürgergeld, i.e. unemployment benefit, which is about people abusing the Bürgergeld to the detriment of taxpayers. However, there is no actual data that show that there are a significant number of people who abuse unemployment benefits in any systematic way. The money that the s…

In the UK since 2019–20, disability benefit spending has grown by 45% in real terms and incapacity benefit spending by 26%. https://ifs.org.uk/publications/health-related-benefit-claim... You can argue that nobody is systematically abusing the system but numbers go up. To those paying the taxes to support these benefits that sort of growth looks like abuse.

What might have happened around 2020 that would result in more people not being able to work and requiring assistance?

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#504

Post by luplex »

I think this is a great idea, and a good example of a government that's willing to experiment with creative policy ideas.

Maybe UBI works for some recipients when it's clearly time-limited and the recipients have a clear way to building a stable income, but are bottlenecked on time and capital. I think artists are a good fit for such a program.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#505

Post by vessenes »

qeternity wrote: post #312
BryantD wrote: post #272

Ireland has already provided substantial benefits to artists — income from art is exempt from income tax up to a certain level. Society has not disintegrated. Speculation and anecdotes are not terribly useful but my Irish author friend is not from a rich family, nor is she well-off, but she’s able to support her husband and child in a smaller Irish city by dint of writing several books a year and stressing a lot. I d…

> I don’t think it would be possible without the tax exemption. Maybe it shouldn't be possible. Society is telling your friend that her work is not particularly valuable and that she should probably consider doing something else.

You’re missing, somewhat gleefully, most of the history of western art, which you could imagine as split between patronage-based art (have you heard of the Sistine Chapel, for instance?) and vernacular art - where things like genre storytelling and family portraits come from.

Broadly speaking, vernacular artists work for a fucking living; it’s rare there (like in most pursuits) to get super rich. We can’t all be David Baldacci or Danielle Steele.

NB: Thanks to Neal Stephenson for the best essay on this. He calls genre artists “Beowulf” artists.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#506

Post by tgv »

Ekaros wrote: post #318
tgv wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because people hardly pay for art, yet many consider it worth keeping the arts alive.

Then those many should spend their own money. And not steal from the rest of society. Maybe they could sing up for say extra 20-50% tax which then get distributed.

Libertarians will not be satisfied until everybody suffers maximally.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#507

Post by EQmWgw87pw »

lucideer wrote: post #494
misja111 wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People seem to think only money has value. Your either don't understand or don't want to understand what people are commenting about here. Of course nobody thinks that only money has value. If only money had value, why would anybody exchange money for, say, a bread? What many people are wondering about, is whether the value of the money paid by tax payers to artists, equals the value of what they give to the tax pa…

> Your either don't understand or don't want to understand what people are commenting about here. From reading your comment I think this observation applies to your own understanding, not the gp's. > whether the value of the money paid by tax payers to artists, equals the value of what they give to the tax payers in return. [...] one might wonder why they apparently are not able to sell their art for the same amount…

You’re making a logical leap, how can you say only money has value when things are worth money? That item has value equivalent to the money given for it, therefore that item has value. It’s likely you’d be able to find people who are willing to trade some electronic device you have for another equivalent one (some iPhone for some Android) without exchanging any money. Money is just the measure of value, it’s like saying something cannot be 5ft tall without the existence of a measuring tape. Societies have existed before money they were just inefficient.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#508

Post by CalRobert »

jasonkester wrote: post #391
joe_mamba wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I've never met anyone in any setting that complained about receiving too much money. If you ask pensioners if they should get higher pensions, they'll say YES. If you ask students if they should get more subsidies, they'll say YES. If you ask unemployed people if they should raise unemployment benefits, they'll say YES. If you ask people on minimum wage if they should raise the minimum wage, they'll say YES. Ev…

I'm pretty sure I'm on record here on HN complaining about receiving covid relief checks that I don't need, and that I would much rather that money went to people who were actually struggling. Personally, I want people on the high end of earnings (such as myself) to be taxed more so that a basic income scheme like this can be available for anybody who wants it. Charge me an extra $300/month and give it to some random…

“ One day, that kid will decide that living in a crap shared apartment is getting a bit old and he'll grow some ambition, get a real job, and eventually start earning enough to help sponsor the next round of deadbeats.”

In Ireland their best chance of having their own place is emigration or waiting for their parents to die.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#509

Post by relistan »

throwaway74628 wrote: post #491

A novel treatment for the proverbial dying man. I understand that this program is currently assigned at random but it’s prudent to assume that they’ll shift to a “merit based” system before long i.e. sweetheart deals for members of the right clique, nepotism, and the occasional worthwhile project. For concrete examples, look no further than the content funded and produced by the national broadcaster, RTE. Aside from…

Alternatively, it's successful and is expanded to support more artists in the future. Cynicism with governance not unjustified in Ireland, but here we are looking at some actual progress.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#510

Post by the_gipsy »

BSDobelix wrote: post #379
jimnotgym wrote: post #351

There are some pretty revealing comments here. People seem to think only money has value. Then there are people who see art only as a rich person's pursuit. It can be, but it doesn't need to be. I am reminded of Daniel James also known as Gwyrosydd, his bardic name. He was a Welsh language poet, who wrote probably the greatest Welsh language song, Calon Lân (means 'a pure heart'). People throughout Wales sing this so…

>Go Ireland, great scheme. I wish we had it over here in the UK. It's a bad scheme, it divide's your population into people who have to create "wealth", and people who create "art". Yes creating art (or preserving rare potatoes[1]) should be supported by your government if it's not survivable in a capitalistic society, however having different rights because of your occupation is not better then the middle ages. [1]…

> people who have to create "wealth"

most people don't "create wealth". They're forced to serve up half of their awake time to someone that is "wealthy", most likely through inheritance.

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