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In New York City, congestion pricing leads to marked drop in pollution

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Re: In New York City, congestion pricing leads to marked drop in pollution

#501

Post by doug_durham »

potato3732842 wrote: post #477
doug_durham wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are also heavily subsidized by the US government in the form of relaxed regulations. The profit margins are higher which is why car companies push them. In their current ICE form they also benefit from massive government subsidies of the Oil companies. If you took those away it is unlikely that the convenience would be worth the additional cost.

>They are also heavily subsidized by the US government in the form of relaxed regulations. The profit margins are higher which... Look in the mirror, that's who's responsible for this. You people levied regulations. You levied them in half baked ways that resulted in the demise of sedans and station wagons. And now you complain that SUVs are "subsidized". Get out of here with that nonsense and take your stupid regula…

I take a less libertarian view on this. It because trucks and truck-like vehicles are under-regulated. The result being excess pollution and pedestrian fatalities. We need to remove the loop hole.

Re: In New York City, congestion pricing leads to marked drop in pollution

#502

Post by recursive »

rconti wrote: post #447
recursive wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A better solution would probably be radar-based speed signs with printed threats of fines, though. I don't think people respond to those as much as they do to "traffic calming" like speed bumps, roundabouts, and narrow choke points.

Of course, drivers respond to speed bumps the same way they respond to other poor road surfaces: 3-ton SUVs.

Good synergy with those "road-diet" narrow chokepoints then.

Re: In New York City, congestion pricing leads to marked drop in pollution

#503

Post by margalabargala »

two_handfuls wrote: post #494
margalabargala wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it doesn't. With the ICE car, if you want to go 55, you might accelerate to 57 and then coast down to 55 without using brakes. With an EV you might accelerate to 57 and then brake to 55 when you let off the accelerator. Tire wear is a function of how often you use your tires to slow down the car. With an ICE car that's every time you hit your brakes. With an EV that's both brakes and regen. An EV's time spent bra…

Coasting wears your tires too. By the same amount.

That's...just completely false.

If you lack the middle-school-level understanding of physics to understand why, I'm not going to be able to give it to you in an internet comment.

Think hard about why braking and coasting would wear the tires differently. Here's a hint. Where does the energy go? What is doing the work to stop the car in each scenario?

Re: In New York City, congestion pricing leads to marked drop in pollution

#504

Post by margalabargala »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #498
margalabargala wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regenerative braking needs something to act against in order to slow the car down. Whether the thing on the car side is an electric motor generating voltage or a brake caliper generating heat, the effect of both is to create resistance to the axle turning. This slows the car via tire-road friction. EVs tend to use regenerative braking, thus applying road-tire friction, much more often than an ICE vehicle uses brakes.…

But if the car decelerates harder when you let off the gas than you expect (compared to an ICE), maybe you'll give it a bit more "gas", so that, in the end, your deceleration is roughly the same in both types of cars? I haven't noticed EVs oscillating between full acceleration and hard braking when out and about. They seem to be driven pretty much the same as any other car. If I'm not mistaken, this means that tyre w…

The oscillation you mention does exist, it's just small enough that it's tough to pick out visually watching the car. But it can be felt within the vehicle, and the small oscillations are certainly enough to wear tires more than the ICE alternative.

If you have any friends with motion sickness, ask them if it feels different to be a passenger in an EV.

Alternately go to a tire shop and ask whether EVs wear tires faster.

All this isn't to say EVs aren't better than ICE vehicles. They are, in many ways. It's just that tire wear isn't one of them.

Re: In New York City, congestion pricing leads to marked drop in pollution

#505

Post by SoftTalker »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #375
SoftTalker wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consumers like SUVs. They are convenient, easy to get in and out of, flexible for hauling large items, many can pull trailers, offer good visibility for the driver, and do well in the snow.

Wagons can do all of that too

They can, the main difference being they ride lower (like a sedan) and tend to have less headroom in the cargo area so might not be quite as good at transporting "stuff."

I had a Ford Focus wagon for quite some time, loved it. Cheap to buy, cheap to own, nothing exciting but very dependable and useful. With a small 4-cylinder engine it could not tow (at least not much) and rust eventually claimed it. Still ran like new with over 200K miles.

Re: In New York City, congestion pricing leads to marked drop in pollution

#506

Post by SoftTalker »

SR2Z wrote: post #469
SoftTalker wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern diesel engines with DPF and DEF are pretty clean from a particulate and NOx standpoint. Of course there are still older diesels on the road, mainly buses and trucks. In the USA, diesel is so unpopular as a passenger car engine that it's not even worth worrying about.

I don't think you can just say diesel is less popular in the US without bringing up the emissions scandals. It genuinely seems to me like companies can't deliver clean emissions and efficiency gains at the same time for it.

The scandals don't matter. The number of people in the USA who buy diesel passenger cars rounds off to "nobody." There's just no point in even bothering. Supposing you could make an ultra-low emission diesel (without cheating), you'd still sell almost none.

Re: In New York City, congestion pricing leads to marked drop in pollution

#507

Post by rogerrogerr »

margalabargala wrote: post #493
two_handfuls wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tires wear the same amount here because either way, the car decelerates by the same amount at roughly the same rate.

No, it doesn't. With the ICE car, if you want to go 55, you might accelerate to 57 and then coast down to 55 without using brakes. With an EV you might accelerate to 57 and then brake to 55 when you let off the accelerator. Tire wear is a function of how often you use your tires to slow down the car. With an ICE car that's every time you hit your brakes. With an EV that's both brakes and regen. An EV's time spent bra…

> With an EV you might accelerate to 57 and then brake to 55 when you let off the accelerator.

No one with more than a few miles of one-pedal driving would do this; it’d be highly unpleasant.

What actually happens is you remap your pedal inputs: all the way off is braking, somewhere in the middle is coasting. Your brain will do it automatically and OPD is far more pleasant than two-pedal driving after a trivial learning curve.

Re: In New York City, congestion pricing leads to marked drop in pollution

#508

Post by bryanlarsen »

margalabargala wrote: post #493
two_handfuls wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tires wear the same amount here because either way, the car decelerates by the same amount at roughly the same rate.

No, it doesn't. With the ICE car, if you want to go 55, you might accelerate to 57 and then coast down to 55 without using brakes. With an EV you might accelerate to 57 and then brake to 55 when you let off the accelerator. Tire wear is a function of how often you use your tires to slow down the car. With an ICE car that's every time you hit your brakes. With an EV that's both brakes and regen. An EV's time spent bra…

> With an EV you might accelerate to 57 and then brake to 55 when you let off the accelerator.

No you don't; in fact you can't. Letting off the accelerator enough to apply regen is going to take far more than 2 mph off your speed.

If you want to drop from 57 to 55 in an EV its done the exact same way you do it in an ICE vehicle: you coast.

Re: In New York City, congestion pricing leads to marked drop in pollution

#509

Post by ZeroGravitas »

HPsquared wrote: post #25
kyleee wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And unfortunately there is some nasty stuff in tires

There never seems to be much discussion on reducing the harm from tire (and I suppose road surface) particulates. Maybe that's the next frontier?

EU is introducing particulate regulation roughly now-ish (proposed 2022):

https://single-market-economy.ec.europa.eu/sectors/automotiv...

> Euro 7 will also regulate emissions from tyres and brakes for the first time worldwide.

Re: In New York City, congestion pricing leads to marked drop in pollution

#510

Post by margalabargala »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #508
margalabargala wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it doesn't. With the ICE car, if you want to go 55, you might accelerate to 57 and then coast down to 55 without using brakes. With an EV you might accelerate to 57 and then brake to 55 when you let off the accelerator. Tire wear is a function of how often you use your tires to slow down the car. With an ICE car that's every time you hit your brakes. With an EV that's both brakes and regen. An EV's time spent bra…

> With an EV you might accelerate to 57 and then brake to 55 when you let off the accelerator. No you don't; in fact you can't. Letting off the accelerator enough to apply regen is going to take far more than 2 mph off your speed. If you want to drop from 57 to 55 in an EV its done the exact same way you do it in an ICE vehicle: you coast.

Of the three EVs, all different manufacturers, that we've owned in the last decade, zero have coasting as an easy option. You have to either switch off OPD entirely, or else literally shift the car into neutral.

And yes, you are right, if you do that you can coast and then your tire wear will be no worse than an ICE vehicle.

Most EV drivers don't do those things.

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