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America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

cnn.com

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Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#501

Post by ajuc »

least wrote: post #404
isodev wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only 10% of applicants are physically and mentally qualified? Another way would be investing in education (instead of dismantling it, or mixing it with religion and politics), making it more accessible so more people come out who are better equipped to take on "complex jobs"

I generally agree with your sentiment for improving education, but I don't think the limiting factor for ATCs has to do with it, but with innate qualities in individuals. You can see the list of criteria here: https://www.faa.gov/air-traffic-controller-qualifications

- Be a United States citizen

- Be under the age of 31

Well, they restrict the pool pretty harshly right from the start.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#502

Post by throwaway2037 »

0xB31B1B wrote: post #348
throwaway2037 wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> about money Some light Googling tells me that median pay is about 100K to 120K USD per year. Most people here would say that is not outstanding for such highly skilled work. Why don't other highly developed countries have the same issues finding employees? You never read about "ATC hiring crisis" in other countries. Why only the US? > The real need is new and modern technology that automates much of the mistake-pro…

"Why don't other highly developed countries have the same issues finding employees?" Baumol effects. Our economy is incredible, extremely high productivity along with full employment. Its why we have ordering kiosks at fast food restaurants, pay 225k for bucee's managers and 20 dollars/hour to flip burgers at fast food restaurants. ATC is a low productivity growth job, technology hasn't increased the number of planes…

    > technology hasn't increased the number of planes or amount of airspace one ATC can manage
As I understand, the primary limiting factor for airport runway throughput (arrivals and departures) is wake turbulence from the engines. I remember, as a kid in the 80s/90s, that there were some accidents related to smaller planes taking off into the wake of larger planes. I am pretty sure that regular passenger jets (say, A320/B737+) are limited to one takeoff every 2 mins from a runway. (Or it might be 1 min.) That said, improving ATC technology might help to reduce delays and maximise runway throughput.

Loosely related: I cannot remember the website now, but someone posted here in the last 3 years an insane website that showed (visually!) the new approaches to London Heathrow Airport (world's busiest two runway airport). It was batshit crazy. I am sure they spent months designing the new approaches. It looked like multiple DNA helix'es where planes circle to wait for landing slots.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#503

Post by jajko »

legitster wrote: post #77

Everyone is going to make this about money or unions or etc, but my employer briefly worked with some ATC employee groups and I can tell you exactly why they are short staffed: - The FAA has strict hiring requirements. You have to be mentally and physically capable, and by their own admission less than 10% of applicants are qualified for the job. https://www.faa.gov/air-traffic-controller-qualifications - The trainin…

If job is too stressful since people get overloaded, simply add more people and adjust structure so that it actually delivers more throughput. It doesn't scale linearly, but it doesn't need to, this is not some rock bottom budget service but simply a security monopoly.

The goal here shouldn't be to have a small set of brilliant people-machines that perform always 100% under various stress and understaffing, the goal is to have a larger set of good workers that are easily replaceable (ie if they call in sick, have accident or other sudden events).

Money and probably just a mild change of approach how such team is created and maintained. If you pay those folks more than lawyers and doctors, then many of those and other high performers will apply for such job. Also it would be one of the more moral high paying jobs out there.

Given how much is constantly at stake money and people wise its still peanuts, feel free to take away 10% budget from completely useless airport security ala TSA - here literally everybody would win (apart from security folks, but those jobs are crap and they hate it AFAIK)

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#504

Post by swores »

least wrote: post #404
isodev wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only 10% of applicants are physically and mentally qualified? Another way would be investing in education (instead of dismantling it, or mixing it with religion and politics), making it more accessible so more people come out who are better equipped to take on "complex jobs"

I generally agree with your sentiment for improving education, but I don't think the limiting factor for ATCs has to do with it, but with innate qualities in individuals. You can see the list of criteria here: https://www.faa.gov/air-traffic-controller-qualifications

I think most people underestimate the amount of "innate qualities" from patience to creativity etc. that actually are influenced by education, parenting, etc. rather than being defined at birth by genetics.

Education isn't just about changing the quantity of knowledge people have learned - a country with good free education, along with other things like mental health support, good parenting resources/education/support, etc. will lead to more people having the qualities needed to be ATCs despite not having learned them by going to specific "managing stress 101" classes.

(Edit: It's possible I misunderstood you and by innate qualities you literally just meant the things in their explicit requirements list like being under 31 and being a US citizen, if so apologies but I'll leave my comment here anyway.)

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#505

Post by RobotToaster »

tw04 wrote: post #201
legitster wrote: post #77

Everyone is going to make this about money or unions or etc, but my employer briefly worked with some ATC employee groups and I can tell you exactly why they are short staffed: - The FAA has strict hiring requirements. You have to be mentally and physically capable, and by their own admission less than 10% of applicants are qualified for the job. https://www.faa.gov/air-traffic-controller-qualifications - The trainin…

Everything you have listed above could be solved with money. Only 10% of applicants are physically and mentally qualified? Sounds like you need more applicants? Want to attract more applicants? Offer more compensation. The training and onboarding is incredibly long? Sounds like a doctor? Do you know why people go through the pain of becoming a doctor? Because they make a lot of money when they get through the other s…

> Too much stress? I bet if you paid people so much money that they could work for 10 years and then either retire to a lower paying job, or retire entirely, people would deal with it.

Or pay people enough they can afford to work part time. A stressful job is less stressful if you only have to work 2 days a week.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#506

Post by District5524 »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #103
trunnell wrote: post #20

To those who know more about ATC: is there any hope of automation?

I don't know more about ATC, but it looks like a field ripe for disruption and innovation. AI should be able to handle the coordination of flights without the downside of the delays and limitations of the human training pipeline, worker fatigue, and stress - all for less expense. The more I think about it, the more I feel like I could have something tangible at the end of a weekend or two - at least a prototype.

Could Congress support AI research and innovation by asking AI company CEOs found guilty of overpromising to prove the reliability of their latest technology by flying in AI-controlled airplanes and relying on AI-managed air traffic, instead of using private jets with human pilots and air traffic controllers? /s

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#507

Post by trod1234 »

legitster wrote: post #77

Everyone is going to make this about money or unions or etc, but my employer briefly worked with some ATC employee groups and I can tell you exactly why they are short staffed: - The FAA has strict hiring requirements. You have to be mentally and physically capable, and by their own admission less than 10% of applicants are qualified for the job. https://www.faa.gov/air-traffic-controller-qualifications - The trainin…

Government is not immune to the economics of things. There is an opportunity cost for everything.

Government has historically been far behind the pay scale curve for things like this, but that isn't the main driver of people not going into these fields.

There is a huge talent pool that simply will not apply for Government jobs. That is because the work environment is toxic. A special kind of parasite that walks upright on two legs rears its head where everything is about standing, and seniority, rather than production and results, and DEI is a big part of that.

The restrictions are also very high, for any G-man job. Government jobs have gotten the worst reputation, because quite literally any good person doing those jobs eventually trades their sanity for them. Its filled with personal cost.

It also doesn't help matters that the government actually created these problems to begin with. If you don't know what I'm talking about google the 1981 Reagan ATC strike, and how Reagan broke the backs of the ATC union labor movement overnight.

The system is fragile because its centralized. Single points of failure, and front of line blocking are some of the worst types of problems to deal with in highly complex systems because they often are not obvious except to the people whose job it is to design resiliency into the system.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#508

Post by RobotToaster »

portaouflop wrote: post #327
nicoburns wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Earning highly does not universally command respect the way being a doctor does. Some would even see earning that much as being immoral (i.e. actually negative)

Which very highly paid job does not command respect in society? I can’t think of any (Outside of anti-capitalist circles ofc)

Politician?

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#509

Post by trod1234 »

tw04 wrote: post #201
legitster wrote: post #77

Everyone is going to make this about money or unions or etc, but my employer briefly worked with some ATC employee groups and I can tell you exactly why they are short staffed: - The FAA has strict hiring requirements. You have to be mentally and physically capable, and by their own admission less than 10% of applicants are qualified for the job. https://www.faa.gov/air-traffic-controller-qualifications - The trainin…

Everything you have listed above could be solved with money. Only 10% of applicants are physically and mentally qualified? Sounds like you need more applicants? Want to attract more applicants? Offer more compensation. The training and onboarding is incredibly long? Sounds like a doctor? Do you know why people go through the pain of becoming a doctor? Because they make a lot of money when they get through the other s…

> Everything you have listed could be solved with money.

No that's actually not true. Government jobs are soul crushing. The way the bureaucracy works, its all about social standing, politics, and seniority. In these jobs you trade your sanity for money, and they have a long reputation for being just like this which is why few ever apply.

No reasonably average intelligence person is going to do that unless they are absolutely desperate. Its a dead end job.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#510

Post by swores »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #436
bruce511 wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You miss the point. why the low view exists is irrelevant. Frankly, while I acknowledge their necessity, I have a poor (default) view of both bankers and lawyers. I don't see them as bad people, but people in their professions do many bad things. If my son brings a banker home as a prospective mate, well, let's say they're not earning status points from their profession. You (may have) and I (do) have respect for peo…

> You miss the point. why the low view exists is irrelevant. It's very much relevant to this conversation. Without specific negative factors like a "predatory" aspect, increasing earnings will increase prestige. ATC doesn't have those factors.

They brought up bankers and lawyers in response to someone asking "Which very highly paid job does not command respect in society? I can’t think of any"

So yes it is irrelevant in the specific context of that sub-conversation. Which isn't to say that your point arguing why that might not be applicable to ATCs isn't also a relevant thing to say to being the conversation back to the main topic of this thread.

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