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OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

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Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#501

Post by [deleted] »

seanhunter wrote: post #473
827a wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a third possibility I haven't seen discussed yet: That DeepSeek, illegally, got their hands on an OpenAI model via a breach of OpenAI's systems. Its easy to laugh at OpenAI and say "you reap what you sow", I'm 100% in that camp, but given the lengths other Chinese entities have gone to when it comes to replicating Western technology; we should not discount this. That being said, breaching OAI's systems, re-t…

The reason you’re not seeing that being discussed is it’s totally unsupported by any evidence that’s in the public domain. Unless you have some actual evidence of such a breach, you may as well introduce the possibility that DeepSeek was reverse engineered from data found at an alien crash site.

[deleted]

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#502

Post by greasegum »

radicality wrote: post #336
semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

I liked Matt Levine’s newsletter few days ago where he hypothesized scenarios where it’s much more profitable to short your competitors, then release a much better version of some widget completely free, and then profit $$$. Which is plausible here too, considering DeepSeek is made by a hedge fund.

Came here to mention this too. Seem almost so obvious that I'm surprised this isn't the dominant angle.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#503

Post by valine »

Imnimo wrote: post #320

I think there's two different things going on here: "DeepSeek trained on our outputs and that's not fair because those outputs are ours, and you shouldn't take other peoples' data!" This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data in the first place - by scraping other peoples' data off the internet. "DeepSeek trained on our outputs, and so their claims of replicating…

The existence of R1-zero is evidence against any sort of theft of OpenAI's internal COT data. The model sometimes outputs illegible text that's useful only to R1. You can't do distillation without a shared vocabulary. The only way R1 could exist is if they trained it with RL.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#504

Post by Imnimo »

riantogo wrote: post #461
Imnimo wrote: post #320

I think there's two different things going on here: "DeepSeek trained on our outputs and that's not fair because those outputs are ours, and you shouldn't take other peoples' data!" This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data in the first place - by scraping other peoples' data off the internet. "DeepSeek trained on our outputs, and so their claims of replicating…

Why would it cast any doubt? If you can use o1 output to build a better R1. Then use R1 output to build a better X1... then a better X2.. XN, that just shows a method to create better systems for a fraction of the cost from where we stand. If it was that obvious OpenAI should have themselves done. But the disruptors did it. It hindsight it might sound obvious, but that is true for all innovations. It is all good stuf…

I think it would cast doubt on the narrative "you could have trained o1 with much less compute, and r1 is proof of that", if it turned out that in order to train r1 in the first place, you had to have access to bunch of outputs from o1. In other words, you had to do the really expensive o1 training in the first place.

(with the caveat that all we have right now are accusations that DeepSeek made use of OpenAI data - it might just as well turn out that DeepSeek really did work independently, and you really could have gotten o1-like performance with much less compute)

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#505

Post by JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B »

827a wrote: post #465
Imnimo wrote: post #320

I think there's two different things going on here: "DeepSeek trained on our outputs and that's not fair because those outputs are ours, and you shouldn't take other peoples' data!" This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data in the first place - by scraping other peoples' data off the internet. "DeepSeek trained on our outputs, and so their claims of replicating…

There is a third possibility I haven't seen discussed yet: That DeepSeek, illegally, got their hands on an OpenAI model via a breach of OpenAI's systems. Its easy to laugh at OpenAI and say "you reap what you sow", I'm 100% in that camp, but given the lengths other Chinese entities have gone to when it comes to replicating Western technology; we should not discount this. That being said, breaching OAI's systems, re-t…

I discount this because OpenAI is pumping the whole internet for money, and Zuckerberg torrented LibGen for its AI. We cannot blame the Chinese anymore. They went through the crappy "Made in China" phase in the 80s/90s, but they mastered the art of improving stuff instead of mere cloning, and it makes the big companies angry which is a nice bonus.

IMHO the whole world is becoming crazy for a lot of reasons, and pissing off billionaires makes me laugh.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#506

Post by FooBarWidget »

Imnimo wrote: post #320

I think there's two different things going on here: "DeepSeek trained on our outputs and that's not fair because those outputs are ours, and you shouldn't take other peoples' data!" This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data in the first place - by scraping other peoples' data off the internet. "DeepSeek trained on our outputs, and so their claims of replicating…

There are literally public ChatGPT conversations data sets. For the past 2 years it's been common practice for pretty much all open source models to train on them. Ask just about any open source model who they are and a lot of the time they'll say they're ChatGPT. Why is "having obtained o1 generated data" suddenly such a huge news, to the point of warranting conspiracy theories about undisclosed/undiscovered breaches at OpenAI? Nobody ever made a fuss about public ChatGPT data sets until now. No hacking of OpenAI is needed to obtain ChatGPT data.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#507

Post by nostradumbasp »

thiago_fm wrote: post #310
wanderingmoose wrote: post #297

There is a lot of discussion here about IP theft. Honest question, from deepseek's point of view as a company under a different set of laws than US/Western -- was there IP theft? A company like OpenAI can put whatever licensing they want in place. But that only matters if they can enforce it. The question is, can they enforce it against deepseek? Did deepseek do something illegal under the laws of their originating c…

The most interesting part is that China has been ahead of the US in AI for many years, just not in LLMs. You need to visit mainland China and see how AI applications are everywhere, from transport to goods shipping. I'm not surprised at all. I hope this in the end makes the US kill its strict IP laws, which is the problem. If the US doesn't, China will always have a huge edge on it, no matter how much NVidia hardware…

Maybe not $10 unless they are loss-leading to dominance. Well they actually could very well do exactly that... Hm, yea, good points. I would expect at least an order or two of magnitude higher to prevent an inferno.

Lets be fair though. Replicating TSMC isn't something that could happen quickly. Then again, who knows how far along they already are...

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#508

Post by jjcob »

plantwallshoe wrote: post #361
glenstein wrote: post #220

All the top level comments are basking in the irony of it, which is fair enough. But I think this changes the Deepseek narrative a bit. If they just benefited from repurposing OpenAI data, that's different than having achieved an engineering breakthrough, which may suggest OpenAI's results were hard earned after all.

Yeah what happens when we remove all financial incentive to fund groundbreaking science? It’s the same problem with pharmaceuticals and generics. It’s great when the price of drugs is low, but without perverse financial incentives no company is going to burn billions of dollars in a risky search for new medicines.

Then we just have to fund research by giving grants to universities and research teams. Oh wait a sec: That's already what pretty much every government in the world is doing anyway!
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