Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering • Hacker News Board

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#501

Post by devoutsalsa » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 2:53 AM UTC

jacurtis wrote: post #405

javajosh wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is simply unbelievable that the company was even able to get to the point of diving to such depths with humans aboard. As I get older, I see this sentiment as very naive. The tacit assumption seems to be that there is an agency, a government, an organization, that would review and approve such endeavors. But that's just not how the world works. You can't stop people from going to sea, or sending contraptions to t…

As I have moved through my career and been in charge of larger and larger companies, I continue to be surprised how much of what you would expect is critical infrastructure that affects many people is being "cobbled" together. I've worked at some companies that manage huge systems that affects tens of millions of people, which cause extremely severe problems if they break, and they are "cobbled" together with a surpr…

Some of the cobbling are illegible she’ll scripts written by “my friend”.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#502

Post by brutusborn » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 2:53 AM UTC

anamexis wrote: post #492

brutusborn wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the general public, this is a few adventurers. Very different. Also, desiring to give up power to an authority is authoritarianism (at least according to Oxford): “ the enforcement or advocacy of strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom.”

Supporting fairly basic safety regulations for commercial endeavors does not equal strict obedience to authority.

I’d be interested to see your proposal for ‘basic’ safety regulations for subs. When you get into the weeds of this stuff it is actually very difficult and costly.

We struggle to regulate giant industries, there is no chance we can regulate every crazy idea that someone wants to try out.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#503

Post by vanattab » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 2:53 AM UTC

topspin wrote: post #382

thepasswordis wrote: post #270

I am blown away that there is any overlap between HN readers and people getting gotten by this clickbait. The controller is sending control signals to the computer which controls the motors. The controller itself is basically irrelevant . It’s not actually doing the control, the motor controllers are. Using off the shelf stuff like this is also common since it’s extremely well tested and usually very physically robus…

> since it’s extremely well tested Logitech tests products under these conditions? Sea water? I've had considerable experience with Logitech products and I can't imagine employing a consumer grade Logitech controller for any life-critical purpose. It's built-to-a-price e-waste from which you hope to get a couple years of service under near ideal indoor residential conditions.

For what it's worth us nuclear subs use cots game controllers for periscope control. It has other benefits to like being super intuitive for new young soldiers to use.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#504

Post by fastball » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 3:00 AM UTC

srmarm wrote: post #3

The US Navy uses an Xbox 360 controller in active service [0] Mass market has a lot of R&D to leverage so it makes sense. Nothing to say this is the cause of the fault and probably going to be more reliable than something hand rolled. [0] https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/19/16333376/us-navy-military...

Yes but that is the Xbox 360 controller, the greatest controller of all time. This is... logitech.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#505

Post by proggy » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 3:01 AM UTC

mcpherrinm wrote: post #416

hunson_abadeer wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe so, but it's easy to say this after the fact. When kludges like this work, we admire "scrappy" and "ingenious" engineers who are finding ways to launch rockets or build submarines or medical devices or whatever for fraction the price. It's only when it blows up that it turns from "ingenuity" into "amateur hour". People who participated in this knew the risks. They fucked up. None of us would have designed a bet…

I am not a mechanical engineer, so you're right, I wouldn't design a better submarine. Peers in the industry though have expressed concerns, such as in this 2018 letter: > This letter is sent on behalf of our industry members who have collectively expressed unanimous concern regarding the development of TITAN and the planned Titanic Expedition. Our apprehension is that the current experimental approach adopted by Oce…

It’s a relief to see that the Marine Technology Society saw this coming 6 years ago, and did what they could to encourage OceanGate to do the right thing. There are inherent, known risks with deep sea exploration and firms need to be held to a minimum standard of safety out of a basic respect for human life. Being a scrappy startup isn’t a valid excuse for cutting corners when it comes to engineering and qualification of a pressure vessel and its essential components.

I really hope that the foresight of the MTS is recognized amongst the general public, and the DSV space doesn’t suffer a setback in perception and/or funding. At present, it does seem like the general sentiment is that this specific submersible was built to an incredibly poor standard when compared to, say, the famed Alvin or Deepsea Challenger. I hope that sentiment holds.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#506

Post by wpietri » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 3:03 AM UTC

javajosh wrote: post #356

proggy wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is simply unbelievable that the company was even able to get to the point of diving to such depths with humans aboard. If they had encountered a program-destroying but non-catastrophic failure earlier on, it is possible we wouldn't be looking at one of the many horrific outcomes that this incident will likely resolve to. Looking at the accounts reported to date, the OceanGate engineering culture was basically non-…

>It is simply unbelievable that the company was even able to get to the point of diving to such depths with humans aboard. As I get older, I see this sentiment as very naive. The tacit assumption seems to be that there is an agency, a government, an organization, that would review and approve such endeavors. But that's just not how the world works. You can't stop people from going to sea, or sending contraptions to t…

It's wild to me that you write "As I get older, I see this sentiment as very naive." And then go on to say some breathtakingly naive things.

A lot of ocean activity is thoroughly regulated. For example: https://www.imo.org/en/About/Conventions/Pages/International...

Moreover, It's not like they're getting paid in sand dollars or doubloons from the bottom of the sea. The passengers are signing contracts and paying large fees in landlubber currencies. There's a company involved here, a legal entity. The company is based in Washington State.

If this was really not covered by any law in any country with a plausible claim on it, you can bet that people will soon be clamoring for one. Remember that air travel was once entirely unregulated. Now it's one of the most highly controlled activities. A lot of regulation like that happens in response to notable disasters; the regulations are, as they say, "written in blood."

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#507

Post by andromeduck » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 3:04 AM UTC

lagolinguini wrote: post #457

wongarsu wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sub has already survived multiple dives to 4000 meters, and so far nobody has come out with reports of any apparent problems with the viewport. Maybe it failed from an impact or from accumulated fractures from all these pressure cycles, but I'm also completely willing to believe that the depth-rating for human occupancy has enough of a safety factor that going 3 times deeper doesn't lead to failure. From the pre-…

Not an expert on submarine design, but if it's comparable to aircraft, each pressurization-depressurization cycle actually increases the stress on the vessel. Just because it worked once doesn't necessarily mean it will always work. https://simpleflying.com/pressurization-cycles-aircraft-life...

Yeah for which carbon fiber yube is a far more likely failure point given it's ulyrw low longitudinal compression strength not to mention risk of cyclic failure from delamination.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#508

Post by rcme » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 3:04 AM UTC

phs318u wrote: post #491

antonvs wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that the cobbling together at a large org has generally been battle-tested over time, at scale. The bits that were going to break have already broken and been replaced with something better. While it may seem horrible aesthetically from a developer's perspective, it's nevertheless functional and reliable for its purpose. But when you use that approach on a new, one-off device with life-threatening c…

Can anyone downvoting antonvs please explain why? I think it’s a valid opinion to hold and point to make irrespective of whether you agree.

I didn’t downvote him, but I think it’s a bit dismissive of the original point and kind of falls prey to the no true Scotsman fallacy. antonvs’ point can be summarized as essentially “even though you have firsthand experience running companies with cobbled together critical infrastructure, that’s not actually cobbled together infrastructure.”

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#509

Post by quickthrower2 » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 3:04 AM UTC

mmkos wrote: post #347

AHOHA wrote: post #327

What’s wrong with Logitech controller? It’s good and reliable, I use it in the drone platform I built (in addition to xbox/ps4/ps5 controllers) and we flew the drone from the other half of this planet, this is like saying “oh your tank/car/whatever steering wheel or this component is only $150 so it’s bad!!”, that’s the idea of engineering, find/make reliable pieces at an affordable price, guess that contractor if th…

I think you're missing the point. When making these design decisions, you have to ask 'what can go wrong, and what is the implication of that?'. In your example, you can replace the controller with ease if it breaks, but you can't do that when you are underwater at 4000m below the sea level. Therefore it should at least be designed to be more durable and redundancies should be built in, say a basic console with physi…

You can stock some spare controllers. Maybe 2 brands in case on brand has a recurring issue that is affected by being in that environment.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#510

Post by metabagel » Wed, Jun 21, 2023, 3:06 AM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #380

neither_color wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Everyone involved knew what they were getting into. Not necessarily. For extreme sports like skydiving, bungee jumping, hang-gliding scuba and the like customers still expect a high level of adherence to safety and quality products and certifications exist. Would you want to parachute off an uncertified plane with an un-licensed pilot and inexperienced jumper?

If they said they were, and I did, presumably.

So, “no”