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Who cares about diversity?

fakenous.substack.com

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Re: Who cares about diversity?

#501
post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the pendulum has swung so far back I can recall reading "diversity" advocates trying to remove them in the last few years for being insufficiently equitable.

I didn't realize this was a thing till I read it. nytimes [0]: "To Make Orchestras More Diverse, End Blind Auditions" [0]: https://archive.ph/kCb9N

One of the arguments given really bugs me:

> A typical orchestral audition might end up attracting dozens of people who are essentially indistinguishable in their musicianship and technique.

Then raise the bar. Why are we content that more people can achieve the top tier of any field? If leaders of a field cannot find ways to evaluate newcomers, then replace them with new leaders and techniques that can. What a lazy excuse.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#502
post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the pendulum has swung so far back I can recall reading "diversity" advocates trying to remove them in the last few years for being insufficiently equitable.

I didn't realize this was a thing till I read it. nytimes [0]: "To Make Orchestras More Diverse, End Blind Auditions" [0]: https://archive.ph/kCb9N

This feels to me like an example of Goodhart's law:

"When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure"

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#504

I care about diversity because different cultures bring different ideas and skills to the situation. When I get in a jam, I don't want just one idea for getting out of it, I want many.

Can you give an example on how a white male software developer would develop something differently than for example an asian woman, and how the cultural difference would translate into a different approach of writing code?

"Your name must contain..."

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Speaking of the US) Our society has historically created great differences in opportunity. It is unarguable that white males have disproportionately benefited[1][2][3]. Affirmative action / Diversity Initiatives are a blunt instrument that attempts to address these historical inequities. If e.g., a student from a school in a poor area had the same quality of a K-12 education, did not have to worry about tuition (I.e…

Why not just put more money into schools and poorer areas?

We would need an entirely different way of funding schools to make that happen. In the US school funding is more tied to local taxes, so wealthier areas get more money. There are other programs to give additional funds to poor areas, but it's not usually enough to level the playing field.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#506
post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said "conservative politicians" not "conservatives". The loudest crazies on both side don't generally represent the mainstream, but conservative politicians are actively appealing to the crazies. Absolutely nobody is being taught in schools to feel guilty for being white. That's an outright lie concocted by conservative politicians. Your perspectives of the liberal view is based on the worst caricature of liberal v…

> I said "conservative politicians" not "conservatives". The loudest crazies on both side don't generally represent the mainstream, but conservative politicians are actively appealing to the crazies. Fair enough, but my point stands. Conservative politicians merely adopted criticizing CRT. Liberals were born in it. ;) > Absolutely nobody is being taught in schools to feel guilty for being white. That's an outright li…

"Fair enough, but my point stands. Conservative politicians merely adopted criticizing CRT. Liberals were born in it. ;)"

No, that point doesn't stand. I'm not sure where you even argued this. CRT is not taught in any public schools. It's grad school level. CRT mania is, again, conservative propaganda. If you want anecdote, I have two kids in big city public schools and they have read Stamped and done anti-racist lessons and Ibram Kendi did a talk for us. Believe it or not, they learned the right lessons. No one was insulted or made to feel bad about themselves at all. Conservatives are framing this kind of education not just as ineffective, but a grave and dire threat to America. Most liberals had never even heard of this kind of thing until conservatives started screaming about it.

WSWS is also just not credible. I doubt any policy makers of any stripe trust what they print.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#507
post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuinely inquiring here, on the study you linked: The study is that high-risk youth are less likely to engage in criminal activity if they attend a first-choice school. Why not inquire why those schools are first choice & if those factors can be deployed to every other school? Similarly, what do you mean stop subsidizing dependency? What specific dependencies are being subsidized and what are the outcomes of no long…

> Why not inquire why those schools are first choice & if those factors can be deployed to every other school? That's not an easy question to answer, but have you asked it yourself? Why don't public schools adopt the successful practices of charter schools that have the prospect of saving their youth from a life of crime? My explanation is that teacher's unions fight against the practices proven successful in other c…

If we're going to ascribe success to a factor like school choice, we should also rule out other factors such as what those schools are being chosen for. [For example, if it turns out that there are no academic differences in chosen vs non-chosen schools, and its simply that the mere ability to choose a school causes benefits, that's really important to know!]

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#508
post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I said "conservative politicians" not "conservatives". The loudest crazies on both side don't generally represent the mainstream, but conservative politicians are actively appealing to the crazies. Fair enough, but my point stands. Conservative politicians merely adopted criticizing CRT. Liberals were born in it. ;) > Absolutely nobody is being taught in schools to feel guilty for being white. That's an outright li…

"Fair enough, but my point stands. Conservative politicians merely adopted criticizing CRT. Liberals were born in it. ;)" No, that point doesn't stand. I'm not sure where you even argued this. CRT is not taught in any public schools. It's grad school level. CRT mania is, again, conservative propaganda. If you want anecdote, I have two kids in big city public schools and they have read Stamped and done anti-racist les…

> I'm not sure where you even argued this

First sentence of my earlier post: 'Liberals have been talking about this long before the words “woke” or “CRT” fell upon conservative ears.'

> CRT is not taught in any public schools. It's grad school level. CRT mania is, again, conservative propaganda.

CRT inspires a lot of public school education. There's clearly a lot of ideas that orbit CRT, and people use "CRT" as a shorthand to talk about them even though they aren't exactly part of the narrowest-definition of CRT. Conservatives often badly articulate and misunderstand these ideas and the ways they're problematic, and they pick problematic solutions for countering them (speech codes); however, criticizing CRT and related ideas isn't "conservative propaganda". For the third time now, liberals were criticizing this stuff long before conservatives knew what was happening.

> If you want anecdote, I have two kids in big city public schools and they have read Stamped and done anti-racist lessons and Ibram Kendi did a talk for us. Believe it or not, they learned the right lessons. No one was insulted or made to feel bad about themselves at all.

You claimed that no schools are teaching white guilt. You can't support that with an anecdote about a school that didn't teach white guilt. To be perfectly clear, I'm not arguing that every single school teaches white guilt all the time (not even the zaniest conservatives are making this argument).

> Conservatives are framing this kind of education not just as ineffective, but a grave and dire threat to America.

Why are you fixating on conservatives when neither of us are conservatives?

> Most liberals had never even heard of this kind of thing until conservatives started screaming about it.

Of course. Most liberals are normies who aren't paying close attention (same with most conservatives). But among the folks who were paying attention, loads of liberals were talking about this long before it entered the conservative mainstream. Folks like Jonathan Haidt have been examining this stuff since at least 2011.

> WSWS is also just not credible. I doubt any policy makers of any stripe trust what they print.

How can I take you seriously when you say that a professional historian, author, and emerita professor of history at Texas State University is "not credible" and when you refer to her as "a policy maker"? Come on. Moreover, I offered the WSWS version because your entire argument hinges on "only conservatives criticize 1619" and this is an example of socialists (pretty far removed from conservatives) objecting to 1619's pseudo-history.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#509
post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't follow. We live in the present so presentism seems pretty practical. Besides, this isn't ancient history. Civil Rights was only like 60 years ago. Strom Thurmond served in Congress this century. Is there any point in history that it would be acceptable to have a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest on public land?

> We live in the present so presentism seems pretty practical. Well, I live now. I’m very liberal , but am I more noble for doing fuck-all about civil rights (apart from voting) than the abolitionists who literally died to end slavery? Does the woke college student really deserve a statue more than MLK? > Besides, this isn't ancient history. Granted, but I don’t see the relevance. You should still judge people of the…

I mean you are moving the goal posts into the parking lot right now. The initial question was whether or not there was value in taking incremental steps to combat racism and you're saying we shouldn't build statues to the keyboard warriors of Twitter. Nobody ever suggested that. And while we can absolutely evaluate historical figures on their cultural context that doesn't mean we should lionize them on public property. Forrest was the Confederate general who founded the KKK and was honored with a ridiculous statue on public property in Nashville.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#510
post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely irrelevant. The point is to improve the world we live in. To redress mistakes we're presently feeling the effects of. Not to punish every historical error.

Steven Pinker makes a way better argument in his latest two books than I could in a HN comment about why this stuff is nowhere near "completely irrelevant" if you genuinely care about bettering the world and resolving secular wrongs. By and large, squabbling about what this or that minority ethnicity might have suffered at some time in the past is very much part of the problem, not the solution.

The argument is not about righting historical wrongs. It's about righting present wrongs. DEI is not slavery reparations.
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