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Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

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Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#501
post #473

the top comments talking about maps, it's absolutely insane 'The agreement included a pledge from Apple to help Chinese manufacturers develop "the most advanced manufacturing technologies," "support the training of high-quality Chinese talents," use more components from Chinese suppliers, sign deals with Chinese software firms, collaborate with research in Chinese universities, and directly invest in Chinese tech com…

> It aches my heart to be a young man in this country and see this be our so-called 'leaders'. I'm confident the tides have already turned against all this nonsense, though, and I look forward to rebuilding industries of the world with good-hearted men & women

I just got finished reading a book about the pre-war climate of 1930s Europe and man this comment sounds scary and nationalist.

I’m worried that so many people like you buy into the media positioning of China vs. America. It ratchets up tensions for the purpose of selling clicks.

Do you not see how American companies making deals with other countries is beneficial for everyone, including you? The economy is not a zero-sum game. You can create value without destroying it elsewhere. Nobody has to suffer in order for you to thrive.

When deals like this are made, it makes it less likely China will do things to piss off the US, and vice-versa. The last thing we need are more tensions.

Do you really want to hold people in other countries back from ever achieving the standards of living that you enjoy?

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#502
post #384
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People outside of China are served a different set of maps. Each country is served maps that conform to their territorial claims. E.g. If you view the map of India while in India, it'll appear different than if you viewed it in China.

To add, India has a similar law for maps. Any company serving maps in India has to show, for example, all of Kashmir - including the ones we aren't in control of - as belonging to India. I've made a small hobby out of noting websites which should be illegal in India because of that. A recent memorable incident (not a website, and not found by me) was when John Oliver's Last Week Tonight did a show on Asian-Americans…

> I've made a small hobby out of noting websites which should be illegal in India because of that.

Do you mean you are reporting these sites?

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#503
post #447
post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's a practice reaching as far back as cartography itself

The old projections systems were even made to blow up what you cared about (your country) and be very scale-imprecised on the outskirt.

That might be less propaganda, and more about wanting a large, precise map of the area that interests you.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until 2000, the US reduced the accuracy of GPS for civilian applications. The UK removed street signs and railway station names in anticipation of German invasion in WWII. Kuwaitis removed street signs when Iraq invaded in 1990. 'Where the streets go' is strategically valuable information.

My understanding is that the resolution of commercially available satellite imagery is restricted by the US. I don't recall details, just passing references from the show "What on Earth?"

Commercial satellite operators licensed in the US are restricted to no more than 25 cm imagery resolution. Of course that limit doesn't apply to foreign operators. And it doesn't apply to aircraft either; many of the "satellite" images you see on Google Maps were actually shot from airplanes.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#505
post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add, India has a similar law for maps. Any company serving maps in India has to show, for example, all of Kashmir - including the ones we aren't in control of - as belonging to India. I've made a small hobby out of noting websites which should be illegal in India because of that. A recent memorable incident (not a website, and not found by me) was when John Oliver's Last Week Tonight did a show on Asian-Americans…

Ownership disputes exist in many places across the world. But making an island appear larger than it is, is a unique demand that reminds me of Indiana trying to pass a law that declared the value of pi to be equal to 3.

> Indiana trying to pass a law that declared the value of pi to be equal to 3.

Interesting. Was that really true? Why did they need to change the value?

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're preventing citizens from publishing that info, not looking around and measuring from what I found. Imagine a country that prevents its citizens from recording a song they hear and sharing it with their friends. Oh, wait, US more or less does that and forces other countries to implement policies that prevent it or they will ban trade with those countries.

>a country that prevents its citizens from recording a song... False analogy. No-one claims copy-write on the physical world. Well, not except the CCP.

Songs are being played in the physical world.

I think the analogy is perfectly valid anyway. You're just trying to find an excuse to compensate a dissonance. But all rules are arbitrary.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#507
post #320
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google withdrew from the Chinese market for multiple reasons, but one influential one was the state sponsored penetration of Google ops in China.

That was 10 years ago, before they negotiated for access.

Do you have information on what that negotiation or access is?

Full disclosure I work at Google.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#508
post #348

I thought the HackerNews crowd could do better than "Google/Apple/X is offering something censored / is complying with local laws / local government requests in China/Russia/X so it must be bad and they must stop". Don't be so naive. 1. In order for US/international companies to survive in China/Russia/heavily censored countries or regions, they have to comply to local laws. Otherwise they are blocked or shutdown com…

1) This article is about Tim Cook negotiating deals to help the Chinese economy to avoid bad press that they aren't a team player over there, and so this has nothing to do with "complying with laws". 2) FWIW, to reply to that anyway: while this article is not about this, Apple does go far out of their way to make themselves a bottleneck that would be subject to these laws in the first place. As a trivial example of t…

1) Yes, this article is about Apple's secret deal with China. But this is exactly the way deals are done in China. They are not going to be public about it and they are not going to admit that this investment has anything to do with keeping Apple's business going in China, but in reality, they absolutely are related if not causal.

2) This is not true. Apple used to allow VPN apps on the Chinese App Store up until one day several years ago that they couldn't fight it any more and were forced to take all of them down. It is not Apple going far beyond what was requested/needed to stay in business, they have zero incentive to do so unlike the local Chinese competitors who go all out on "precautious" censorship.

It is the same with Android - No VPN apps can be found from ANY app stores in China (Google Playstore is not even available in China). The only reason you can install an VPN app is via an .apk file and this is due to the technical design by Android vs. a closed ecosystem like Apple App Store. I don't think you can say a closed-source system is less morally reasonable at all. There are 10x or more malicious apps that steal user data on Android than Apple App Store due to lack of control and verification. It is just a consequence of two different technical design approaches.

Technically speaking, Chinese Android phone companies could just block 3rd-party apk installation anytime they want in the name of security (They already do that by default) and 99% users won't know how to circumvent it.

3) My entire post is actually trying to make a point that you, like most of the commenters in this thread, are idealists who vastly underestimate the value of being able to operate in these markets controlled by authoritarian regimes and reaching the end users.

Strategically, the most morally-reasonable way is to help the people in these countries by actually trying to be present even under severe pressures from the regimes to comply with their demands.

For example, Google's exit from China is actually a huge mistake. It is the best case scenario for the Chinese government and local Chinese competitors and worst case scenario for the Chinese people, Google and the rest of the free world. After the exit, Google handed their leading search engine market share to Baidu, which provides a much more proactively censored and twisted version of the search results, and the Chinese government gained complete control over the search engines. What used to take a lot of back and forth with Google to censor certain small things, is now a simple phone call to Baidu's Government Relations department to get the whole category wiped out.

Same thing happened with Android in China. You think the open-sourced model would bring any less censorship? Not at all. All of the Android App Stores in China are owned and controlled by local companies who comply 100% to government requests. And god knows how many malicious apps are in those app stores to eavesdrop users' private information. It is actually much harder to achieve the same effect with Apple's closed App Store and privacy features. You can buy 3rd party services to track the ID and location history of almost every Android phone sold in China, but this is not available for iPhone users.

So before you blame Apple for being a tool, in reality, they actually contribute much more to the freedom and privacy of the end users in these authoritarian markets. Without Apple, 100% phones would be tapped and there is little hurdle for these local governments to do whatever they want with the local companies.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple has a business to run. "Apple" is not some abstract entity. There are people behind Apple (the shareholders, the managers, the employees). Real people, with real morals and values. I don't think that the only thing all of them care about is "running a business" and that all of them feel it absolves them from acting humanly. It's more complicated than that. (having said that, of course, greed is always strong)…

Apple has an actual fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders. And via survival bias, companies that act purely morally simply cease to exist as they are out competed by companies that focus on profit instead. Such entities simply can't survive via capitalism without, perhaps, government regulation that ensures everyone is playing with the same set of rules.

> purely morally

Must they be pure or completely evil?

Companies have many focuses, including profit, of course, and also morality. Look at the behaviors of the world's leading companies. They need to survive and operate in society, not a Darwinian cleanroom, and they will lose a lot of customers, employees, investors, sympathetic elected officials, and more if they act like objectivists.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally get that people want companies to act with dignity, but the idea that a company, even one as large as Apple, is going to make any sort of difference with respect to China's oddities is wishful thinking. Apple has a business to run. They abide by all sorts of requests in various countries in which they operate. Of course there has to be a line somewhere, I'm just not sure this is it.

> Apple has a business to run. They abide by all sorts of requests in various countries in which they operate. And then people rightly condemn them for it. Because not getting a pass even when the pressure is strong -- especially when the pressure is strong -- is the only incentive we can give them to even try to resist that pressure. That sucks for them. It puts them between a rock and a hard place. Too bad. Because…

> Too bad.

Also, too bad because they are hardly orphan children caught on a battlefield. They are among the most power actors out there. I'd say, 'deal with it', but they don't complain.

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