Live data from Hacker News

Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

nature.com

501–510 of 837 posts

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#501
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s more interesting is that most of these people will survive this episode (given the known mortality data) and thus will “win” the debate (from their point of view) and will never ever trust the government (or health authorities) again. That’s the biggest downside in reality, and regaining the trust is going to be extremely complicated.

I'm not trying to be flippant when I say that it's good that they will not trust government again, as long as that leads to greater public vigilance against government's creeping excesses and self-serving propaganda. If it prevents the next Iraq war and the next Japanese internment, I'm all for it.

Where are all these people preventing internment happening right now?

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#502

How about the biggest dishonesty - lack of admission that not everyone is at the same risk and that lockdowns have significant irreversible costs for low risk individuals and for society? Young children are not getting critical development years back. Healthy 20 somethings only have limited time to date, party and have fun before being saddled with adult responsibilities forever. Most of shattered local businesses ar…

The fact that to this day people still trot out “4% kill rate” and make their kids wear a mask for a disease a kid isn’t even remotely at risk for… my trust in public health is below zero. Not once have these people done anything to calm people or tell them good news. Not a single time. It is disgusting how horribly these public health “experts” treat us.

They keep yelling “follow the science” while completely ignoring or ridiculing science that goes against their pro-mask, pro-lockdown, pro-vaccination narrative.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#503
Sweden also trusted the public, they had many times more deaths than the surrounding countries (Finland, Norway, Denmark), and closer to mainland Europe.

You simply can't compare countries. Some countries have different levels of trust of their governments, different customs, different densities, different borders, etc... Most of Denmark by population is a small island, and by their culture, people tend to keep their distances. It is also a rather rich, homogenous country with a good welfare program. The policy to "trust the public with hard truths" may (or may not) be good for Danemark, maybe not for another country.

I live in France. We are not Danes. We don't trust our government, and anything is ground for protests. We can also panic, I noticed it first hand. So we have a part of the population panic buying toilet paper while the other part is protesting, and while I don't particularly like our government, I kind of sympathize with them, we are not making it an easy task. Ah and we are famously anti-vax too. We are also a well connected country, at the center of western Europe, so of course we have more cases, and I don't thing "telling the hard truth" would have changed anything. We do have a decent welfare system though.

So, I'd like to say that "trusting the people" is a good strategy, but really, it depends on the people in question, and many other factors. Every country is doing its best with what it has, even if it doesn't look like it, and we can't generalize.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#504
post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that to this day people still trot out “4% kill rate” and make their kids wear a mask for a disease a kid isn’t even remotely at risk for… my trust in public health is below zero. Not once have these people done anything to calm people or tell them good news. Not a single time. It is disgusting how horribly these public health “experts” treat us.

They keep yelling “follow the science” while completely ignoring or ridiculing science that goes against their pro-mask, pro-lockdown, pro-vaccination narrative.

There is a pretty popular Christmas event where they put lights around the zoo… All visitors must show proof of vaccination and must wear a mask. Outdoors. In an attendance limited event.

And people wonder why nobody takes this stuff seriously. Because not a bit of it makes sense.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now we've got a huge swath of US citizens that will never take the vaccine. Some never will. But it's been less than two years. If they started telling the truth, the real truth, the hard truths, and kept at it, consistently, for two or five or ten years, at least some of them would come around. Oh, yeah, and if you stopped trying to manipulate and force them . Treat people like grown-ups, even when they disagree w…

Fully agree. One of the best takes I read on this argued that the public health institutions failed the US because they were so intent on forcing outcomes ("don't buy masks") rather than, as you said, simply saying hard truths and giving guidance. People can tell when they're being talked down to, and there's been a lot of that since this started. I don't even think anyone's doing it maliciously, they're just really,…

Genuinely asking: how does this compare with other safety mandates like seatbelts? Those were also government mandated and highly unpopular for the exact same reasons.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#506

How about the biggest dishonesty - lack of admission that not everyone is at the same risk and that lockdowns have significant irreversible costs for low risk individuals and for society? Young children are not getting critical development years back. Healthy 20 somethings only have limited time to date, party and have fun before being saddled with adult responsibilities forever. Most of shattered local businesses ar…

The fact that to this day people still trot out “4% kill rate” and make their kids wear a mask for a disease a kid isn’t even remotely at risk for… my trust in public health is below zero. Not once have these people done anything to calm people or tell them good news. Not a single time. It is disgusting how horribly these public health “experts” treat us.

> people still trot out “4% kill rate”

Which health authority or public health expert is claiming that today and hasn't shared updates with better data (=good news)? Yes, some people still bring that, but that's not because evil experts hide the true data from them.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are misinterpreting. They lost faith in medical experts. I don't think hes talking about the US system as a whole but instead trusting the advice that vaccines are safe, masks work, etc. Medical advice.

Just so I understand, the one thing about flip flopping on masks cost them to lose faith in all medical experts? Doesn't that seem a little unreasonable? I agree we shouldn't have flip flopped on masks, but I don't think making a whole narrative out of that makes sense.

Not just that. In the UK the government are claiming that the virus effects everyone equally and yet everyday the deaths are concentrated in the 60+ brackets. Their latest program has them claiming all pregnant women need the vaccine because it's putting them at massive risk of the worst ventilator and yet the figures show just 20 pregnant women in the last 4 months needed the machine and the other 100 people were fully vaxxed.

EDIT:Forgot the bit where the JCVI recommended against vaccinating the under 18s but the government ignored the science because vaccines=good

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/jcvi-statement-au...

And I also forgot the Whitty charts which led to a winter lockdown and 4000 deaths per day. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8908503/Was-lockdow...

And then there's immunity through infection which stopped being a thing in 2020.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they were open and upfront about limited masks and reserving N95 and other PPE for healthcare workers there was a possibility of a social stigma of individuals buying up and using N95 and PPE. Like how scalpers get the stink eye and angry stares when they take all the toilet paper, hand sanitizer and disinfectant wipes. Sure the masks might not have all gone to the right place but I imagine it would have been bett…

Toilet paper scalpers... Last year I scoffed at the people buying two or three packages of toilet paper. I thought that was selfish, and refused to participate in that hysteria. Then a few weeks later, I was wiping my ass with paper towels for a month because I ran out of toilet paper and couldn't buy more. It got me thinking that I should buy a bidet. It also got me thinking that if I had been "part of the problem"…

At some Costco, a soccer mom was seen buying two packs of toilet paper. That triggered the chain reaction.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#509
post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO it was just a stupid call, because in the face of conflicting data, it would have been a better default option to recommend masks. That's easier to walk back than "oops, we were lying because we don't trust you rubes enough not to hoard, even when explicitly instructed not to hoard." In the beginning of the pandemic I, with effectively zero sewing skills, made a cloth mask out of spare clothing. They could have…

I agree. Wanting to keep supplies to healthcare workers wouldn't have even been all that hard. Thanks to the horrific amount of consolidation in retail they could have gone to only a handful of major players like amazon and walmart and said "Please pull these masks off of shelves and help us save them for healthcare workers" and that would have kept them out of the hands of the vast majority of the population. A few…

At the beginning of the pandemic, there were a lot of problems that required "thinking outside the box," and the US wasn't up to the task. China banned mask exports for a time. Large N95 exports might still require a license in Korea. The Korean government politely asked Samsung in January 2020 to import a few tons of meltblown plastic, and in March instituted export limits and mask rations to secure the domestic mask supply. (The plastic was then allocated from Samsung to mask manufacturers, and when the manufacturers tried to flex their newfound market power the government threatened to take them over.)

Meanwhile the US continued to allow foreign entities to hoard and export masks and meltblown plastic, and didn't make any effort to secure or guarantee domestic production. It would have been so easy for the national stockpile to place an order for 5~10 billion masks, and then set themselves up as an additional link in the supply chain to hospitals which buffers against fluctuations. I imagine they were limited by their legal framework and budget.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since the inception of the FDA, when else have state governments independently verified drugs like this? It is clearly a signal that one ought not to trust the FDA. Is it any surprise that large cohorts of the democratic party (namely, their non-white cohorts) do not want to get the drug? I am not surprised. > "Get the shot if you want to." That is exactly what any sane person should say. Trump is pro-vaccine. He has…

I think you make a good point here that someone can be pro-vaccine while being against a mandate. I hadn't thought of it that way. I don't really see many Republicans going out of their way recommending vaccines though, either. Trump got his in secret initially.

Sensor Mitch McConnell: "I’m glad to share that a few minutes ago, I received a booster vaccination for COVID-19."

https://www.mcconnell.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2021/9/mcc...

You can find plenty more similar statements by Republicans if you bother to look.

Post reply on HN