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Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

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Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, until the vaccination rate falls below the herd immunity threshold, whereupon outbreaks pretty much immediately occur. This has been seen repeatedly with measles, for example, as it is highly transmissible and it doesn’t take much of a drop in vaccination rates to make outbreaks likely. Not taking a vaccine if you’re young and healthy is a purely selfish move. Not taking a vaccine should be reserved for only th…

> Not taking a vaccine if you’re young and healthy is a purely selfish move. Not taking a vaccine should be reserved for only those people who cannot take a vaccine… Why does this always resort to force and control? Do you really not understand how that just turns people off?

Turn people off? Feel free to be turned off, no-one is doing this for fun. The whole point is doing your duty to protect the vulnerable.

It's crazy to me that I see more insane opinions on HN about this than on reddit. Always considered HN a more rational crowd but I'm very disappointed by the users in this thread.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#502
post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-vaxers would have spread the same thing regardless of government info and prediction rate.

This is certifiably untrue. You should take a look at the "traditional" anti-vaxxers, who are a very small minority, and compare them to the recent ones, who are much, much larger. The archetype of a current anti-covid-vaxxer is one who had no problem getting their kids vaccinated for polio, for DTAP, the chickenpox, and usually had no hesitation about getting the annual flu shot. These people are categorically diffe…

> The archetype of a current anti-covid-vaxxer [...] usually had no hesitation about getting the annual flu shot.

Really? At least around here, flu vaccination rates aren't very high. I don't have data, but there's plenty of potential for overlap between anti-covid-vaxxers and people who don't get flu shots (most of which are perfectly normal).

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#503
post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we don’t force people to get all vaccines to travel. Requiring a vaccine passport for the covid vaccine forces people to get it, which is the real reason people are advocating for it.

Yes we do? We've had them for ages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_requirements_for_i...

I bet most people never had to worry about those though. Making them mandatory for covid would be a big change for the majority of the population.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not taking a vaccine if you’re young and healthy is a purely selfish move. Not taking a vaccine should be reserved for only those people who cannot take a vaccine… Why does this always resort to force and control? Do you really not understand how that just turns people off?

Turn people off? Feel free to be turned off, no-one is doing this for fun. The whole point is doing your duty to protect the vulnerable. It's crazy to me that I see more insane opinions on HN about this than on reddit. Always considered HN a more rational crowd but I'm very disappointed by the users in this thread.

> The whole point is doing your duty to protect the vulnerable.

I wish that was the point, but it's not. You can see in this very thread people who are disingenuously arguing that the personal risk/reward ratio of these vaccines is good, as opposed to arguing for moral duty.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#505

This is good. Now states are combating such hesitancy by drawing lottery for vaccinated folks. Like, having this magic, absolutely mind boggling potion that prevents serious illness and death *isn't* already the lottery win of our lifetime?? People in India and elsewhere are dying because of lack of vaccines and here we have educated, first world countries struggle to get their citizens vaccinated. Unfortunately sham…

> Unfortunately shaming such people will only push them further into antivax territory.

We welcome any better suggestions. Have you ever tried to have a respectful, adult discussion based on facts with antivaxers?

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#506
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like, having this magic, absolutely mind boggling potion that prevents serious illness and death isn't already the lottery win of our lifetime A lot of it boils down to people not trusting what they're seeing. Frankly, governments have done the world a disservice by speaking before they really had all the information at the start of the pandemic. In Canada at least an insane amount of what was said turned out to be…

> [...] lots of people see what looks like the "story changing", and distrust anything coming out of their government, [...]. Changing and updating our beliefs as evidence comes in is a fundamental ability that underlies numerous activities from scientific research to debugging software to driving on a congested road network. Why is it a problem for public health officials to update and change policy as we learn more…

The problem isn't that our authorities are changing their beliefs based on new evidence coming in. The problem is that our authorities are changing beliefs based on the current political situation, pretending that that reflects shifting evidence and, worst of all, not admitting that they've changed their views.

Let's take the current debate over the "lab leak" hypothesis as an example. A large amount of the evidence, both for and against the lab leak hypothesis dates back to March/April/May of 2020. Yet, when the lab leak hypothesis was raised around that time period, it was immediately and vociferously dismissed by the media as a racist ploy to distract from the government's shambolic handling of the pandemic. When the hypothesis was raised again, this year, it was treated as a serious possibility that deserved a full and thorough investigation.

What changed? It wasn't the evidence -- the evidence has been present all along. What changed was the political environment that suddenly made it possible to speak of a lab leak without sounding like tinfoil-hatted crackpot. As a result, now this previously unmentionable hypothesis is now getting its due consideration by the media.

However, the media isn't admitting that a change occurred. Instead, what the average person is seeing is mainstream media outlets shifting seamlessly from, "The lab leak hypothesis is a racist lie," to "The lab leak hypothesis is a serious allegation that deserves a thorough investigation." It's like the scene from 1984, where the Inner Party representative switches seamlessly mid-speech from discussing the ongoing war against Eurasia to the ongoing war against Eastasia.

We saw a similar phenomenon take place last year over masks. There were warnings about the virus being airborne as far back as January of 2021. As late as March, you had Time magazine saying that wearing a mask was "superstitious behavior" [1]. Over the next two to three weeks, the advice rapidly shifted, from "masks are a sign of unreasonable paranoia" to "masks are mandatory, and anyone not wearing them is putting everyone around them in danger". Was that due to a shift in the evidence? No. As noted above, there was ample warning that the virus was airbone, and many people were taking appropriate precautions even in the absence of official guidance. What shifted was the political environment.

Moreover, then, just as now, no media outlet ever admitted that it had given incorrect advice. There were individual journalists who (to their credit) admitted a certain level of responsibility, but, as far as I know, no major mainstream media outlet has come forward and said, "You know what? We screwed up, and we apologize." Instead , we see silent corrections that rewrite the past without admitting any kind of fault. Heck, just compare the headline on the Time article today [2] to the headline on the archived version. The headline was silently updated with a much more moderate point, and a caveat about changing CDC guidance was added. But there was no formal correction published anywhere that said, "You know that article we printed last week about masks being bogus? Yeah, that was wrong, and we're sorry."

Honestly, after seeing the performance of the media in its handling of the coronavirus pandemic, I'm surprised that more people aren't as cynical about the "official story" as the cashier in the sibling thread.

[1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20200305052928/https://time.com/...

[2]: https://time.com/5794729/coronavirus-face-masks/

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#507
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question, how is a vaccine passport any different from a proof of immunization (one common form being the International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis), which is standard fare for travelling to/from many countries already? We’ve been using these to combat the spread of diseases like yellow fever for years.

Because we don’t force people to get all vaccines to travel. Requiring a vaccine passport for the covid vaccine forces people to get it, which is the real reason people are advocating for it.

I'm pro the passport thing, at least for travel, so life can go back to normal and I can say fly from UK to Italy and back without 5 pcr tests and 10 days isolating in spite of being basically immune. At least the EU are bringing them in in a couple of weeks and I imagine other countries will follow.

The EU one I think allows for immunity from catching covid so if you are anti vax and want to go that route you can.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#508
post #243
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question, how is a vaccine passport any different from a proof of immunization (one common form being the International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis), which is standard fare for travelling to/from many countries already? We’ve been using these to combat the spread of diseases like yellow fever for years.

It's being introduced to countries where such measures are new and it's being used within borders. The idea is that venue operators for concerts and other events will be checking your vaccination status. I find that Black Mirror level dystopian personally.

Israel tried a domestic one and it seemed to work ok but had become kind of redundant as they have basically got rid of covid (cases from 8000 a day to 10). It wasn't very enforced - just a bit of paper you could wave to go to the gym etc. They've scrapped it now as no longer needed.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#509
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have anything on the Astra-Zenaca vaccine and how well it works against the do called "South-African" variant. There was a story that they'd stopped a trial because the results were so bad. Do we have any harder data?

Yes, Astra-Zeneca has been shown to be repeatedly poor against variants, a big story in the UK right now is whether the increase in cases and sense of being behind the US is due to gov't overly committing to a shoddy vaccine, or if it's variants burning through unvaccinated populations. The picture isn't nearly as rosey as OP makes it sound, unfortunately: sort of a gish gallop about knowing the rate at which we can…

I meant some actual links to some actual data...

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#510
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] lots of people see what looks like the "story changing", and distrust anything coming out of their government, [...]. Changing and updating our beliefs as evidence comes in is a fundamental ability that underlies numerous activities from scientific research to debugging software to driving on a congested road network. Why is it a problem for public health officials to update and change policy as we learn more…

The problem isn't that our authorities are changing their beliefs based on new evidence coming in. The problem is that our authorities are changing beliefs based on the current political situation, pretending that that reflects shifting evidence and, worst of all, not admitting that they've changed their views. Let's take the current debate over the "lab leak" hypothesis as an example. A large amount of the evidence,…

At the time, i was asking myself why the lab-leak was rejected. I mean, its obviously not human-made, but why couldn't it be a contagion inside the lab from an already made virus.

Now, maybe its reactance, but i believe the zoonose more likely.

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