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How Basecamp Blew Up

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Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#501
post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So as a white male, you were in the minority at this company?

This misconduct happens regardless of the demographics. It just depends on how much abuse and vitriol management allows and encourages.

My point was that i find it laughable that any white man will have a hard time getting a job in the tech industry because he is white considering there isn't a tech company i have ever known that wasn't mostly white guys working there. Maybe wait until white guys make up less than 75% of the workforce in your industry before you start complaining about descrimination.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#502
post #463

Bit of a fool’s errand to try and avoid politics at work — like a fish trying to avoid water in the ocean. The ways companies are built and maintained, the relationship between employers and employees, workplace requirements and benefits — all of these are shaped by and and built from political systems, to say nothing of how politics surrounding a person’s identity might affect their worldview. You’re never going to…

> You point out that this is part of a pattern of societal behavior you’ve known your whole life, and that pattern has affected your life negatively and materially. This is not received well — combating a single incident is easy, but unraveling a pattern of behavior is an arduous, years-long, and sometimes unprofitable path.

One can empathically agree that such injustice, and any injustice, sucks, and still advocate compartmentalizing between institutions of the society writ large. That unprofitable path is not Basecamp's to bear. Not all injustices of the society receive a corresponding level of PR and therefore can be equally leveraged in the context of employee activism in a private enterprise.

If rank ordering of the issues of the society is left to the ripples made by affluential corporate citizens, that will introduce a host of biases that will alienate the full set of citizens of the democracy, and will likely create its own class of injustices.

The issue is not about surgically removing politics from work, it is to prevent its (mis)use as a backchannel.

To be clear, I feel equally strongly against corporate activism at the C-level or at the corporate identity level. But most employee activism is not only not a counter to that, it amplifies and parasitizes those very dynamics.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#503
post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You almost certainly do, they just keep silent.

I’m lucky to work for a small company where I am treated with respect by every one of my coworkers and my bosses. They are curious, thoughtful, and kind people, and I don’t need a window into their minds to know they’re not thinking “I could find a better job if I pretended to be trans.” Believe it or not, people are sometimes just kind because it’s the right thing to do.

If there’s anything the diversity-oriented mindset should have taught us, it’s that you can’t assume what others think just based on who they are or how they act.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#504
post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree about trying not to say things that are hurtful, but surely you understand the difference in making a defamatory remark about a minority or oppressed group vs a similar remark about a majority group that holds most of the wealth and power?

What is the difference?

One is punching down. The other is punching up, or at least laterally.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#505

Definitions are everything. Consider someone for whom "white supremacy" means "it is right and appropriate to act deliberately to create and preserve white dominance of other races". Versus someone for whom it means "privilege exists in many, though often subtle ways, and advantages white, male, older, cis, het people". It's a lot like how "defund police" means radically different things.

Then those vying for change should consider using less offensive, divisive, and frankly ridiculous (i.e. defund the police), language.

It's now tiresome to hear the defense "oh defund doesn't mean _defund_...." -- then don't say it. If the charge of white supremacy isn't meant to insult people based on race (overt racism, itself), then maybe convey the thought more clearly.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#506
post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had to quit a company last year due to bigotry. Constant bashing of white men on company calls. Exceptions if you were openly non straight. They also loved talking about how inclusive they were. Constant mocking of customer base, who was mostly traditional white people. I figure out quick I was hired only because they were desperate for someone with experience. Which sadly meant hiring an undesirable. At some point i…

So as a white male, you were in the minority at this company?

Yes. Even counting the various non binary white males. Some wore dresses, so maybe they don’t count.

Hiring was based on race and sex. This was company policy.

They put money were there mouth was and hiring a TON of fresh out of college JR’s. Only had a couple of senior people and they were very overwhelmed.

Product was in bad shape because of it, which is how I came in.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#507
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airbnb has also been vocal about the multi year slog to dig themselves out of their Rails hole.

On the other hand, it probably also enabled them to get up & running with a MVP fairly fast and low-cost. No one knew it was going to be the big success from the get-go, and most new companies fail. In hindsight, it was probably a bad choice. At the time however, it was probably a good one. Besides, things like AirBnB are the exceptions. Most sites don't get anywhere near the traffic they get, and Rails is often a go…

Even in hindsight I think Rails was a good choice for Airbnb. It got the company to where it needed to be. If they had chosen something else, there would have been different trade offs. The early team really benefited from the productivity benefits of Rails.

Source: I worked at Airbnb for five years and a very early team member told me this.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. But this is (was) a 60-person company. That's about the size of the company I'm currently working at. In other words, you should know everyone and interact with a sizeable chunk of these people somewhat regularly. It strikes me as very odd that you would suddenly so fundamentally distrust your co-workers with whom you share so much. But I'm also not in the US and maybe this is just the current climate over the…

The culture here is getting bad. We have an "inclusion council" that hands out these diktats. The word ban list (not blacklist!) is approaching 100 words including husband, housekeeping, normal, hacker and meritocracy. Worse part is we're a security company edit: "here" is okta, not basecamp

The most crazy about this stuff in the stirring-stuff-up sense person that I know went to okta specifically because they sensed it would be a good place to engage in this behavior.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#509
post #473
post #463

Bit of a fool’s errand to try and avoid politics at work — like a fish trying to avoid water in the ocean. The ways companies are built and maintained, the relationship between employers and employees, workplace requirements and benefits — all of these are shaped by and and built from political systems, to say nothing of how politics surrounding a person’s identity might affect their worldview. You’re never going to…

I can understand being hurt and more about the funny names list. But I think things have gotten out of hand when at an all hands meeting people are debating topics like: "we live in a white supremacist culture" Or demands from one employee to another at all hands meetings to denounce white supremacy. I doubt many companies could handle that right... and I'm sure many people would come away more hurt.

Did those things actually happen at Basecamp or are they theoretical?

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#510
post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This misconduct happens regardless of the demographics. It just depends on how much abuse and vitriol management allows and encourages.

My point was that i find it laughable that any white man will have a hard time getting a job in the tech industry because he is white considering there isn't a tech company i have ever known that wasn't mostly white guys working there. Maybe wait until white guys make up less than 75% of the workforce in your industry before you start complaining about descrimination.

It’s more that I was required to join in the hatred.

Staying quiet on identity politics and just focusing on the tech stack got me into trouble with management.

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