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Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

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Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#501

Post by AlexTWithBeard »

hnunionthrow wrote: post #412
drivebycomment wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that definition, companies are workplace monopolies. So are you against companies ? If you want to argue you can choose a different company, by the same token you can choose a different union by choosing a different company.

I believe what GP was alluding to is that if a workplace is unionized, the worker does not have a choice of wanting to be a part of the union or not(in a non right to work state), and so essentially a monopoly. IF the worker wants to work for that employer, he can only do so via the union. No way for the worker to work for the employer and not wanting to do absolutely nothing with the union.

Sorry, should've been more explicit, but I wanted to say that a union creates a workforce monopoly.

Once an employer can no longer hire non-unionized employees, it has to either surrender to the union requirements or close altogether. This is a monopoly in its best.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#502

Post by yibg »

rootsofallevil wrote: post #485
yibg wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone points to SAG as an example of a good union. But how many of these are there? If there are dozens of examples of "bad unions" and a single example of a "good union", that doesn't exactly give someone voting to unionize high confidence.

Talk to people in places like Germany and you might get a different take about bad/good unions

This didn't happen in Germany, this happened in the US. For whatever reason unions behave differently here, and it's the union model in the US that people rightfully evaluate against.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#503

Post by mariksolo »

kethinov wrote: post #269
lovecg wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really, it seems indisputable to you that someone who’s job is on the line and who probably spent quite a bit of time looking into what was being proposed ultimately decided to vote no must be wrong? I’m curious what better information you have (especially to compensate for the lack of skin in the game so to speak) to come to that conclusion.

Aside from the common sense that collective bargaining obviously puts you in a stronger negotiating position than individual bargaining for the same class of job, there is also plenty of data out there showing that unions deliver results. Anti-union people counter that by flooding the discourse with FUD propaganda that is often very persuasive but just because it's persuasive doesn't mean it is true.

Collective bargaining is 100% better than individual bargaining.

But, collective bargaining is only a single aspect of unions. They're not voting against it because they dislike collective bargaining, but because of other reasons. Collective bargaining is likely not a significant motivator for them because their salaries really are fairly high for the area.

I think in many cases unions are good, and in many others they are bad. I disagree that you can point at overall data and use that decide a specific case. Union data likely has severe survivorship bias, since unions likely tend to exist where they are more helpful.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#504

Post by ur-whale »

zarkov99 wrote: post #88

Good. I have lived in 3 continents and 4 different countries and I have yet to see a union that is not run by and for the lazy and incompetent, ultimately to the ruin of all involved. I hear Germany cracked the code on that one, but in the US unions seem to be pretty much like everywhere.

> I have yet to see a union that is not run by and for the lazy and incompetent

Exactly what I've observed throughout my career, thank you for putting it so succinctly.

You're also missing those for whom the union is a pure political, power-grabbing device.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#505

Post by JackFr »

psychometry wrote: post #337
ActorNightly wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA needs better education so that people understand economics and labor markets, so they wont calling paid positions indentured servitude.

We need better education so that people stop voting against their own self-interest, in union elections and generally.

Or in other words, we need to indoctrinate people so that they vote the way I think they should.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#506

Post by stcredzero »

colejohnson66 wrote: post #263
kukx wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people need to take care of themselves first, then their family, then their immediate surrounding, then their region and their country. Reversing the dependency on a large scale is not sustainable. Someone's right is someone else responsibility, for someone to receive money, someone else has to provide it. The government is a middleman in this transaction that wastes a substantial share of the value in the proces…

The problem with the “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” thinking is that it ignores being born into the problem. Sure, some people can work their way out of a rut that their parents were in, but the majority can’t.

The problem with the “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” thinking is that it ignores being born into the problem.

This is both right and wrong. Asian immigrants are notorious for arriving on foreign shores, penniless, then winding up owning businesses and sending their kids to top tier schools. The problem isn't being born into not having money and things. The problem is being born into an environment that sets children up for future failure.

The good news, is that such cultural practices aren't attached to race or ethnicity and so can be learned and adopted. There are historical precedents for this.

The bad news, is that other cultural practices can do the opposite, and insulate groups of people against things like valuing education and a work ethic.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#507

Post by snurfer »

ivvve wrote: post #178
snurfer wrote: post #65

The Retail, Wholesale and Department Store Union hasn't always worked out for those workplaces that have brought them in.* In this instance, maybe unions aren't the solution to the "problem" or maybe the problem doesn't really exist? * https://www.unionfacts.com/union/Retail,_Wholesale,_and_Depa...

You gotta be kidding me... this "Centre for Union Facts" is a 501(c) doesn't disclose it's donors. I'd bet dollars to donuts it's funded by businesses like Amazon and Walmart to do in their employees who want to collectively bargain. Probably a terribly biased source, for anyone who wants the real facts about unions.

So, you're implying the 11 union decertification petitions in the link I provided are fake or something?

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#508

Post by 8bithero »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #380
8bithero wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe a controversial or skewed observation - But as a European looking (from outside) into the US, it looks like everyone has the impression that they're all millionaires who just haven't made it yet. They don't seem to want to disrupt the status quo, even if it benefits them, incase they're next inline to make it big :/

> But as a European looking (from outside) into the US, it looks like everyone has the impression that they're all millionaires who just haven't made it yet. The "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" trope gets repeated often online, but it's largely unfounded cynicism. It's true that we need to fix our health care system and bolster our safety nets, but the reality is that average Americans are relatively wealthy a…

Yeah, those are valid points. That's why I was a bit apprehensive to post my original comment. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of good things about the US! I wouldn't hesitate to move over there if I had the chance - know anyone who could sponsor a visa, by any chance? ;p But it does seem like an exceptionally easy place to slip through the cracks of society, but if you're not in the lower percentile you've probably got it better than most people in the world.

The one point I would have to disagree with the the reasons for voting against their interests. And the only reason for this is seeing the results of the Brexit referendum in 2016. What happened there is people who set themselves up as figures of authority and told the people Brexit was in their interest. They made the fishing industry into the poster child of their campaigns and convinced them they would benefit. The fishing communities in particular where overwhelmingly in support. Perhaps some did try do their own research, but a large part of social media and the mass-media where all pushing the agenda and using scare tactics and any concerns were batted away as "project fear". When you have figures of authority pushing an agenda it's understandable that people will believe them - Why would they lie? But as Jan 2021 rolled around, the fishing industry in the UK is all but decimated (YoY Salmon exports were down 98% in January). So from that perspective, I wouldn't call the voters dumb because it's easy to get caught out by the disinformation that's out there, but for the most part I would say many were naively trusting ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#509

Post by AnthonyMouse »

slantedview wrote: post #445
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can someone who works/worked one of these jobs please explain it to me? I am so confused by how lopsided this was. It's a result of how unions are structured in the US. (It's different in Europe from what I understand, and they're more popular there as a result.) In the US unions are structured as a monopoly on labor which then nominally has more negotiating power with the employer. The problem is that monopolies a…

> A monopsony employer is still a big problem, of course, it's just not a problem that unions are a solution to. Try antitrust, or lower regulatory barriers to small businesses so that there are more competing local employers etc. I like your comment, but unions aren't necessarily meant to solve this problem. Amazon imposes terrible working conditions on its warehouse workers, which a union absolutely could address.

> Amazon imposes terrible working conditions on its warehouse workers, which a union absolutely could address.

How? The union's negotiating power comes from the ability to go on strike. They make a demand, Amazon says no, they go on strike, Amazon closes that warehouse and sends people their cheap junk from a different one.

All the union can get you is the unemployment line, unless you do something to increase local competition for labor. In which case you don't need the union because employers have to compete through better working conditions.

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