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Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

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Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#51
post #30
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the Reuters article carefully: that's all the money spent by all the members of the "US Business Coalition for TPP" on all lobbying , it's in the same order of magnitude as it was prior to TPP, and even the surge in spending now isn't all TPP. For instance, Boeing doubled their lobbying --- to lobby against the proposed elimination of the Export-Import Bank.

Sure, but even if it's not all TPP related - that is a truckload of money. I have no idea what you even spend that amount of money on - it would buy a lot of champagne and hookers for representatives.

And you thought you didn't know where it went, you sly rascal you.

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#52
post #33

Can somebody ELI5 the whole TPP thing? As an European should I be concerned? Does it matter only to countries involved?

The TPP is a wholesome beneficial legislation, orchestrated by businesses around the world to ensure their continued profits and ownership of capital creation, such as copyright (it will be harder to share content online without paying for it and DMCA youtube takedown style action will increase.) Furthermore it allows corporations to legally prosecute governments for getting in the way of their hard-earned profits or…

You want for profit entities governing and writing our laws?

Wow.

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously the people involved think it will make the world better for some people.

I suppose it comes back to this crazy religion (Ayn Rand et. al.) that looking after yourself at the expense of others is the only way to make the world stable. It's very convenient for people who are being selfish or making things worse to agree with such crackpot ideas.

Interesting down voting here, any reasons you care to give as to why you disagree? I think the above is a pretty common belief from economics, right wing thinking and Ayn Rand amoungst others.

Here is a reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_egoism

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#54

For a harbinger of what's to come, look into what's happening in Romania with their Rosia Montana gold mine. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-09-11/paulson-ba... http://www.miningfacts.org/Blog/Mining-News/Canadian-Miner-P... Basically a Canadian company will most likely sue the Romanian government for refusing to allow an open pit gold mine. They won't do this in a Romanian court. Just like we saw with Gr…

My understanding of this case is that the mining company signed a contract with the government for development of this mining project, and there is now the possibility that the parliament will at the eleventh hour break the terms of the agreement. I don't see why the government should be exempt from making restitution in cases where it breaks contracts.

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#55
post #36
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but even if it's not all TPP related - that is a truckload of money. I have no idea what you even spend that amount of money on - it would buy a lot of champagne and hookers for representatives.

Not only is it not all TPP related, it is mostly not TPP related. They cited the aggregate lobbying of all the (gigantic) members of a trade coalition, and that statistic is misleading. The "champagne and hookers" snark is silly. Where do hundreds of millions of dollars in lobbying fees go? Approximately the same place as the hundreds of millions of dollars of donations to giant institutional charities go: * Salaries…

Slight correction: lobbying spending numbers do not include donations to candidates or PACs. Federal law prohibts organizations from giving money to either.

Organizations can pay the expenses for a "captive" PAC (usually in the form of hosting it within their headquarters with all the costs that implies), but that spending is also excluded from reported lobbying numbers.

Other than that, you are spot on. Once people realize that lobbying expenditures include salaries and media buys, it's not hard to see how the total gets into many millions of dollars.

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#56
post #9
post #2

To get the viewpoint of people championing this agreement, I recommend reading this article by the Economist[1] where they say "for all its flaws, the biggest trade deal in years is good news for the world" [1] - http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21659716... For the record, I think the TPP is pernicious for all the reasons pointed out by the EFF.

I'm confused by this statement in the article you linked, and I've heard it before: > the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), is the most important free-trade agreement in years How does "29 chapters of dense rules and hundreds of tariff lines " == "free trade"? Free trade is meant to be open, without restriction, and free. Some of the conditions being reported are anything but.

If you want to understand why the TPP is the way it is, look at the Japanese domestic auto market. Their tariff on imported cars is zero, but somehow foreign cars almost never make it to market. Maybe they fail a safety inspection at the port. Maybe there are local registration fees that mysteriously appear and driven up the cost. Maybe the Japanese-run local affiliate is really really slow to move inventory into the stores, or sends a shipment back.

And this does not even get into the barriers that foreign manufacturers face in trying to set up local manufacturing in Japan. There are a million ways a government can stall an investment or construction project if they want to.

These are collectively known as "non-tariff trade barriers" or NTBs. They are the weapon of choice these days to restrict trade, so modern trade agreements have to spend many of their pages addressing NTBs.

To name another example that might resonate with HN, consider the local restrictions that a nation might put on data. For example, a nation might require that any company serving its citizens build data centers within its borders and keep all data within those data centers. That would make it extremely difficult for any but the largest U.S. tech firms to enter foreign markets. That's not a tariff but would obviously slow down trade in Internet services.

As I understand it, TPP will have language to allow data to cross borders.

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#57
post #33

Can somebody ELI5 the whole TPP thing? As an European should I be concerned? Does it matter only to countries involved?

There's literally dozens of /r/ELI5 threads on this[1] that are useful:

- https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/23ubdy/e...

- https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/3az0fa/e...

[1]: https://www.google.com/search?q=eli5+tpp

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#58
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why this needs to be done as one giant agreement seems crazy... If you want to circumvent debate and controversy, get all your buddies together and write up an omnibus agreement or bill. Bundling different ideas together makes it hard to talk about it, let alone debate it.

I go back and forward on this; is it really this brazen or do the people crafting TTIP and TPP really believe it'll make the world better. There must be some involved who think it'll create jobs and money for everyone. Maybe I'm just being overly optimistic - it certainly does look like what you have said.

There's a good chance they think it will make the world better. With that being the case, I'd argue people are more likely to circumvent debate and controversy if they think it will make the world better.

That's not the point. The point is omnibus tactics will always be used to circumvent debate and controversy. It may be for the better, but if it becomes the norm, there's a good chance it will typically be for the worse.

Re: Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial

#59
Well here goes my tiny store of karma points but as a contrarian I can't resist going against the comfortable consensus that the TPP and TIPP (which is of more relevance to me as a European) are evil and sinister.

Some observations:

These negotiations (at least the TTIP ones) are not being conducted by cigar chomping cartoon evil tycoons. A friend I know is involved and the guy is a very modestly paid civil servant. It's mostly boring and technical bureacratic work.

There are very good reasons to conduct discussions like this in private. Despite the impression the EFF article gives, the biggest losers will be commercial special interests not consumers. Consumers don't form groups to spend millions to lobby politicians to enact laws blocking the import of foreign goods and services - these laws and regulations were campaigned for and paid for by politically connected local commercial interests. The secrecy is required to prevent these special interests from using their power to derail the negotiations. Consider what would happen if public minutes were published while say discussing the US bio-ethenol subsidies? Massive political pressure would be exerted on the US negotiating team from the corn producing states effectively making negotiation impossible. Other countries party to the discussion would face the same impossible pressures.

Finally I don't believe that the ISDS is some evil anti-democratic instrument to allow corporations to subvert the local laws. In fact most countries have had similar instruments for decades as part of bilateral deals. The sole purpose is to prevent governments specifically targetting foreign companies with extra rules while not applying the same restrictions on politically connected local enterprises. I believe an individual should be able to defend themselves from capricious government behavior through the legal system. I don't see why businesses shouldn't have similar recourse.

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