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This Industry is Fucked

blog.jessfraz.com

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Re: This Industry is Fucked

#51

Post by nmrm2 »

chipx86 wrote: post #39
thedudemabry wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to avoid addressing the community-created offender registry idea, because like you I'm not sure how to even begin evaluating its potential harms. But I think that law enforcement will inevitably create something of the sort. Like John Oliver's harrassment video from a few weeks ago described, these are real crimes being committed and the state has an interest in solving them. The current weak link in prosec…

Yeah, there is a lot of potential for abuse. Mostly hoping that it would spur on some additional thinking in this area. John Oliver's segment was great. What I'm unsure of, though, is how much a cop can really do? The offenders are not necessarily going to be in the same general area. They may not be in the same country. This would need to be handled internationally, in some way, wouldn't it?

Law enforcement has done a pretty decent job at cooperating across jurisdictions in their war on poor people who use drugs. I'm willing to bet that, if they cared about the issue, they would find a way.

I'm also willing to bet a huge portion of these people are domestic.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#52

Post by yoshuaw »

foiboitoi wrote: post #41
yoshuaw wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, you just downplayed receiving death threats to "attention ensues".

I've found that you can absolutely chalk up "online death threats" to idiots vying for attention. Impersonal (distant) threats are not created equal to in person threats. Edit: The harm is subjective. The whole point of such a message is it's designed entirely to shock or offend. To give the pests actual power over you is the greatest part of the problem. Not saying it should be ignored either. Instead of being melod…

I feel like you're implying that the threats are harmless. They are not.

She received pictures of her covered in blood. A twisted portrayal of someone's fantasies. Receiving something like that would get to anyone.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#53

Post by astrocyte »

Kapura wrote: post #40
astrocyte wrote: post #27

This is not common and, given her focus area in tech, it just happens to be more pronounced among those individuals. Ever heard of 4chan? All it takes is one post of your info and you'll get a swarm of people descending on you... Linux/open source is full of such individuals. They do it to get a rise out of people and the internet is a nice anonymous vehicle to do it under. Has nothing to do w/ the broader industry o…

"Not common?" Really? This SEEMS pretty common. And while I believe it's true that not every woman in tech gets harassed, it's obvious that a much higher percentage of them get this sort of shit than men. And it only gets worse as they get more visible for the good work that they're doing. You say you're tired of this shit. How do you think these women feel? It's not you writing the tweets and emails, but if you beco…

This isn't pretty common nor are any of the off the wall comments and threats she's getting serious. It's called trolling. Have you been on the internet in the last decade? If you're dumb enough to let someone get under your skin, they will and will do so even more.

I'm a minority. Do you know the kind of shit I've had to deal w/ in tech. Note the 'deal with'. Were supposedly in a society where women are demanding to be seen as equals just as men are. Guess what men have to do ? Deal w/ shit .. Shit we don't like on a daily basis. I don't get to create a blog post and have a swarm of women running to my defense? Why all the white knights when women have to go through shit? So, no.. there are standards that are still there. Standards by which men by and large defend women and treat them even above men.

I'm a minority (African American) in tech. Yes, please lets have a sit down so you can tell me all about the kind of crap that occurs. I'm obviously oblivious to it all and have no perspective.

It's not o.k but it's called trolling and this has jack shit to do w/ the tech industry and everything to do w/ the clown assery that is par for the course on the internet. So, I don't in anyway support her blog post. It is ignorant and ill-informed. Just think about it... You think men making six figures at prominent tech companies with a social life, a girlfriend, wife/daughters, and moms are sitting around typing out death threats and rape threats to some random woman in tech when they get home?

No. This is not common. It has jack shit to do w/ the tech industry and everything to do w/ shock-and-awe trolling on the internet. It's 2015. Get up-to-date with what's happening on the internet and stop running to women's rescue every time they have to to go through shit. They have announced they want to be seen as equals and treated as men are .. So, let them deal with and overcome their own shit... trolling being the least of things to be all bent out of shape about.

You disagree? Well, I guess some things haven't changed in society.. Namely that men by and large are still quite protective of women and hold them on high... Quite Contrary to what she and you are trying to portray...

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#54

Post by mholt »

Kapura wrote: post #40
astrocyte wrote: post #27

This is not common and, given her focus area in tech, it just happens to be more pronounced among those individuals. Ever heard of 4chan? All it takes is one post of your info and you'll get a swarm of people descending on you... Linux/open source is full of such individuals. They do it to get a rise out of people and the internet is a nice anonymous vehicle to do it under. Has nothing to do w/ the broader industry o…

"Not common?" Really? This SEEMS pretty common. And while I believe it's true that not every woman in tech gets harassed, it's obvious that a much higher percentage of them get this sort of shit than men. And it only gets worse as they get more visible for the good work that they're doing. You say you're tired of this shit. How do you think these women feel? It's not you writing the tweets and emails, but if you beco…

> if you say "that's just how it is some times" you are a part of the problem.

Come again? How is astrocyte part of Jessie's problem? People are responsible for their own choices, not the choices of others.

> Never say it's OK.

Although I agree, I don't think astrocyte is saying that harassment is OK. (I assume that's what you're referring to.)

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#55

Post by prawn »

obstacle1 wrote: post #35
aaa667 wrote: post #9

And people ask why more women don't speak at conferences or at meetup groups or contribute to open source software, or even publish blogs. It's because we are SCARED. We know what the consequences of making our voices heard can be, and it's terrifying, and we question whether it is worth the risk.

I think you're being a bit overbroad in speaking for all women (that's the kind of thinking which leads to sexism in the first place). Frankly the 'consequences' here are receiving a bunch of unsavoury PMs. i.e., there are no real-world, physical, dangerous consequences. So the fear of contributing to a community because of it is unfounded. It's just a side-effect of Internet culture, and it happens to men too.

Wow, completely insensitive to reality. Photoshopped photos of blood and so on represent serious intimidation. Which one is the troll and which is the one who follows through, finds your address and makes it physical?

This dismissive attitude is part of the problem.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#56

Post by blintzing »

astrocyte wrote: post #27

This is not common and, given her focus area in tech, it just happens to be more pronounced among those individuals. Ever heard of 4chan? All it takes is one post of your info and you'll get a swarm of people descending on you... Linux/open source is full of such individuals. They do it to get a rise out of people and the internet is a nice anonymous vehicle to do it under. Has nothing to do w/ the broader industry o…

How is what the author described "one pronounced incident"? One email or IRC message could be a "pronounced incident". What she describes is clearly much worse, and points to a deep problem - not an one-off "incident".

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#57

Post by obstacle1 »

Kapura wrote: post #40
astrocyte wrote: post #27

This is not common and, given her focus area in tech, it just happens to be more pronounced among those individuals. Ever heard of 4chan? All it takes is one post of your info and you'll get a swarm of people descending on you... Linux/open source is full of such individuals. They do it to get a rise out of people and the internet is a nice anonymous vehicle to do it under. Has nothing to do w/ the broader industry o…

"Not common?" Really? This SEEMS pretty common. And while I believe it's true that not every woman in tech gets harassed, it's obvious that a much higher percentage of them get this sort of shit than men. And it only gets worse as they get more visible for the good work that they're doing. You say you're tired of this shit. How do you think these women feel? It's not you writing the tweets and emails, but if you beco…

>it's obvious that a much higher percentage of them get this sort of shit than men

No, it isn't obvious, since even in the case of women all we have are lots of really visible anecdotes, not statistics.

It could easily be the case that the number of death threats received by males heavily outweighs the number of death threats received by females.

I know that I don't write reactive blog posts every time some troll threatens to gut me via PM. I wonder if other men disproportionately act like me (compared to women) and thus since we aren't screaming about troll death threats it is assumed we don't receive them.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#58

Post by prawn »

obstacle1 wrote: post #37
yoshuaw wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, you just downplayed receiving death threats to "attention ensues".

If I had a nickel for every death threat I've received on the Internet I'd be rich. Death threats from Internet brigade squads are wildly different from actual death threats you need to worry about. Hence the downplaying.

How do you tell the difference?

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#59

Post by nmrm2 »

astrocyte wrote: post #27

This is not common and, given her focus area in tech, it just happens to be more pronounced among those individuals. Ever heard of 4chan? All it takes is one post of your info and you'll get a swarm of people descending on you... Linux/open source is full of such individuals. They do it to get a rise out of people and the internet is a nice anonymous vehicle to do it under. Has nothing to do w/ the broader industry o…

Telling people to stop complaining about what is clearly criminal harassment because it makes the industry look bad is a pretty disgusting sentiment.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#60

Post by qmalxp »

obstacle1 wrote: post #35
aaa667 wrote: post #9

And people ask why more women don't speak at conferences or at meetup groups or contribute to open source software, or even publish blogs. It's because we are SCARED. We know what the consequences of making our voices heard can be, and it's terrifying, and we question whether it is worth the risk.

I think you're being a bit overbroad in speaking for all women (that's the kind of thinking which leads to sexism in the first place). Frankly the 'consequences' here are receiving a bunch of unsavoury PMs. i.e., there are no real-world, physical, dangerous consequences. So the fear of contributing to a community because of it is unfounded. It's just a side-effect of Internet culture, and it happens to men too.

If someone sent you an email every day from different email addresses with the same text saying they were going to rape and murder you, and included your home address, pictures of your family and pictures of weapons, that wouldn't bother you?

How do you know there are no real-world consequences? You're just gonna assume it's some 14-year-old kid trolling you and not one of the many insane people in this world who might actually do something? Based on a hunch?

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