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This Industry is Fucked

blog.jessfraz.com

21–30 of 311 posts

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#21

I just want to understand why people do this. If some men were afraid of losing their jobs because of a big influx of women I'd at least comprehend (but definitely not agree with) that behavior, but it's a job free-for-all now and seems like it always will be, so I just can't see what the motivation could possibly be. If they're just pure sociopaths, why don't they harass men this way as well?

Because women are the easiest target, essentially.

The people who do this essentially are pure sociopaths, and they pick the easiest targets because they're bullies. Women are an easy target for several reasons:

1. Isolation. Women are a minority in tech and there's a larger social stereotype that women can't do math/are incapable of advanced reason/whatever tosh you want to throw in here. That means it's easier to tell women they're trash and undeserving and have them believe it. There's not a lot of people most women can go to to complain about this or receive validation that these are poisonous lies without triggering another stereotype, being weak and vulnerable.

People would rather sit in silence and take it than be seen as a whiner.

2. In performance oriented cultures it's very common to shit on each other as an in-group building behavior. People who can 'take it' are the in group and people who get offended are the out group. Bullies can exploit this by knowing exactly how far they can push and make it seem like good natured ribbing even in a public social context. More subtle bullies can take things further by establishing unique contexts for minor slights to give them greater meaning that isn't there for other people, so that when the victim complains they seem irrational and crazy to observers. (Another stereotype of women.)

3. Cultural factors. All those stereotypes regardless of how much truth there is to them become self fulfilling prophecies. Women are weak and vulnerable is essentially an advertisement for bullies to go target women, bullies enjoy hurting women more for reasons that could be basically summed up as actual misogyny.

As for harassing men as well, they do. They just use different words when they do it. It might be helpful to throw out terms like 'women-hating' or 'misogynist' and zoom out a bit to look at the ways bullies hurt people in different contexts. Bullies don't care who you are, they will hurt anybody who will give them the warm fuzzies of having gotten someone. And to do that they will use whatever tactics or words will hurt.

These people use rape threats and death threats against women because they hurt. Women as a class are the most receptive to this sort of negative input for various cultural and yes physical reasons I won't elaborate on. But bullies have all sorts of tricks to use on other people. If you're a typical heterosexual male they'll tell you you're gay and unmanly. If you're gay and proud they'll tell you you're deviant scum. If you're a minority they'll call you racial slurs and insult you with stereotypes. If you have visible pimples they will tell you you're ugly. They will pick out whatever salient features are available to hurt you with and use them. It's less helpful to think of a lot of these people as racists or what not so much as optimization processes for suffering and tears.

They don't care who you are, they will hurt anyone.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#22
post #18

Kudos to her for standing up to it, but she should clearly never have to. This kind of thing just shouldn't be happening... I don't think I know anybody who does this to women. I really hope that's because I don't actually know anyone who does, and not that people I otherwise respect are secretly doing this. How would a person know, if it's anonymous? Well, maybe a few ways. The question is, are these all actually an…

Way too difficult and rife for abuse.

First, we don't really have static IPs, not even static prefixes on IPv6. You could narrow someone down to their city by their host mask, but that can still be any of 5,000,000 people. And all they have to do is change their MAC address and renew their DHCP lease to have a new IP.

Second, easy to submit faked screenshots to get someone flagged as a bad person. When you get (in)famous enough, trolls start using false flag operations against you.

Best bet is probably a service where registration requires absolute proof of ID (Facebook's "I pinky promise I'm really $madeUpName" isn't enough.) But that still has issues with stolen logins, tricking the registration system, the harassment having your real identity known can cause, and it would keep away decent people who value their privacy.

This is why we can't have nice things.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#23

I'm currently working in a team that is 50% women, and I'm amazed at how many stories they have of previous work experiences and the culture of acceptance in medium sized companies. I hope Jessie doesn't give up. Not only for the sake of our industry, but also for the sake of girls who want to make it in this industry and not have to put up with what jessie has had to put up with. Her (or any person) having to leave…

This absolutely needs police action. Regardless of what your stance is on unwanted sexual attention, sending death threats is not acceptable.

Death threats are illegal in most countries. So yes, police action.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#24
post #14

This is terrible. Are scenarios like this really common? I work with several women in the office, but have not heard of them dealing with such harassment. Is our situation unique? Either way, I hope this changes soon. There's no reason for acting like that.

Speaking as a woman here -

>Are scenarios like this really common?

Very common.

>have not heard of them dealing with such harassment

Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Opening up about harassment opens you up to more problems than it solves sometimes. You get labeled as a trouble maker or people don't believe you or say you made it up or whatever.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#25
Everybody on the internet gets harassment. Especially those who twist facts and misrepresent arguments to push their own agenda.

For example, if you get harassed because you do things like mentioned above and then say it's because you're a woman.

And as alwyas, [evidence needed].

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#27
This is not common and, given her focus area in tech, it just happens to be more pronounced among those individuals. Ever heard of 4chan? All it takes is one post of your info and you'll get a swarm of people descending on you...

Linux/open source is full of such individuals.

They do it to get a rise out of people and the internet is a nice anonymous vehicle to do it under. Has nothing to do w/ the broader industry of tech and more to do with a group of misfits who like to frazzle people for the lulz.

Get the police involved and keep these unfounded broad based attacks of a whole industry to yourself. By making such statements, you're attacking people unjustly and doing the same thing to others that is being done to you. Techies are not rapist... I could care less if you're male/female. The industry is not fucked. You just got trolled by some dweebs on the internet.

One pronounced incident and everyone is ready to cast stones at an industry.. If anything, this needs to stop. It's really getting old and, as someone who does their best to value/see people as equals as a good number in tech do, I'm getting tired of this sh*t.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#28
I'm sorry to hear this.

But I want to add a counter statistic. I've only had pleasant experiences from people trying to help me. The only shit I got in the industry was from a business manager trying to push our team into a death march.

There are many factors out in there in the world. We need to put things back into context, rather than just saying things like "Our Industry is fucked".

It feels like lately its too easy to forget the majority of people in tech (i've found) are incredibly decent human beings both men and women.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#29
post #14

This is terrible. Are scenarios like this really common? I work with several women in the office, but have not heard of them dealing with such harassment. Is our situation unique? Either way, I hope this changes soon. There's no reason for acting like that.

I asked my only female coworker about this, and she said she had never experienced sexual harassment, and found tech culture tame compared with finance, where people would shout at programmers over the phone if things went wrong.

Just one data point.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#30
post #18

Kudos to her for standing up to it, but she should clearly never have to. This kind of thing just shouldn't be happening... I don't think I know anybody who does this to women. I really hope that's because I don't actually know anyone who does, and not that people I otherwise respect are secretly doing this. How would a person know, if it's anonymous? Well, maybe a few ways. The question is, are these all actually an…

I'm going to avoid addressing the community-created offender registry idea, because like you I'm not sure how to even begin evaluating its potential harms.

But I think that law enforcement will inevitably create something of the sort. Like John Oliver's harrassment video from a few weeks ago described, these are real crimes being committed and the state has an interest in solving them. The current weak link in prosecuting offenders is in training officers and prosecutors to recognize that a crime was committed and in providing them the tools to gather enough evidence for a conviction. And I hope we'll get there soon.

Once there is a lower bar for and less social stigma attached to reporting these crimes and having those responsible judged in court, there will be a public record. So whether someone in our community makes a death threat in real life or via Twitter, they'll face the same social consequences as well as legal ones.

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