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Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited

sidazhang.com

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Re: Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited

#51
post #34

The author's post is full of misguided opinions, and inaccuracies. "Reason 1: Bitcoin will not replace retail payment systems" Bitcoin is more of an enabler than a replacer. There are many financial transactions that do not take place because current financial platforms do not let them happen. For example with Bitcoin I could in theory pay an artist in Namibia who makes little sculptures and ships them to worldwide.…

> So the author ought to explain to us why he thinks such increases would suddenly stop

Because they have already stopped. The price of bitcoin has only dropped for the last year. You should give a reason why the drop should stop and it would start to rise again.

> The author completely ignores the economic incentive of transactions within the Bitcoin economy itself. When I give 1 BTC to my father, he can spend 1 BTC on Dell.com. No fiat conversion takes place.

Dell does not accept bitcoin. Dell accepts dollars from bitpay. The expense is paid by bitpay having a worse exchange rate than the normal bitcoin exchanges.

So yeah there is fiat transfer happening.

Out of curiosity do you know any single big retailer that actually accepts bitcoin in the sense that they are not being actually paid in fiat?

> Yet 100,000 merchants are using Bitcoin...

Merchants might use bitcoin. But customers unfortunately are not. Wordpress just stopped accepting bitcoin because they got only 2 purchases per week using it. Data from overstock suggests that it's far more common phenomenon.

Thanks to bitpay there is not really any reason for merchants not to accept it though. They get paid in fiat and they don't get any expenses from accepting it.

Re: Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited

#52
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that article is not that it makes 0 valid points, it's that it makes some terrible correlations as an attempt to prove cryptos won't be huge. What does a scammer selling unlicensed shares in porn production have anything to do with the success or failure of cryptocurrency? Bitcoin was simply the method of payment, nothing more. That example is immediately followed with the eBay + TicketMaster example…

> What does a scammer selling unlicensed shares in porn production have anything to do with the success or failure of cryptocurrency? Because it demonstrates dramatically that one of the main purported advantages of bitcoin (its "trustless" nature) is comically false. As you say, bitcoin is just a payment method, and contrary to what its advocates claim, it does absolutely nothing to prevent shady scams or eliminate…

No. You're conflating the trust-less nature of bitcoin with the idea that individuals who possess Bitcoin are trustful.

The very nature of Bitcoin lies on the assertion that no individual is trustful, and that a trustful network can arise in which no individual node is trusted.

The blockchain allows us to verify that a particular operation has occurred. For example, the blockchain will verify that a particular address owns 1 BTC, or that 1 BTC has transferred from one address to another. It provides reliable, verifiable unit of account without relying on any one actor to be trustful.

The blockchain absolutely does NOT verify that a person won't lie to you to get your money, or that they won't blow it all in casino once you send it to them. That would be an unbelievable miracle, as it would require knowledge of the future.

No rational person has ever claimed the blockchain will prevent scamming. Quite the opposite in fact.

Re: Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited

#53
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't disagree that CryptoCurrencies have by and large been used for illegal transactions. Though, my response would be: So? Any technology can be applied to do something illegal. Do you think this fact played 0 part in the Internet itself thriving? I don't see us scrambling to throw away steak knives just because some people have been stabbed.

The problem is that the majority of money changing hands appears to be for illegal uses. When the internet was in its infancy, this was absolutely not the case. I'm sure there was something going on, but it wasn't the primary use.

Again, I would say: So? So cryptocurrency found a large push from a utility that was largely illegal. Who cares? Does it diminish the utility of the technology in any way whatsoever?

Re: Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited

#54
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the majority of money changing hands appears to be for illegal uses. When the internet was in its infancy, this was absolutely not the case. I'm sure there was something going on, but it wasn't the primary use.

Again, I would say: So? So cryptocurrency found a large push from a utility that was largely illegal. Who cares? Does it diminish the utility of the technology in any way whatsoever?

If you want eventually widespread adoption, the foundation of the currency cannot be illegal. This isn't even a case of questionable morality, there's some really obviously huge illegal transactions going through on Bitcoin.

If you're really so blind that you can't see why this is very bad news for widespread adoption of Bitcoin, you need to take a step back and see things more objectively.

Re: Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited

#55
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he means transactions per block, which is hard to increase 250x.

The Bitcoin devs are working right now on something that could increase the block size more than that. The main thing that limits the size is latency in propagating large blocks. But most miners already have most of the transactions in each block. All you really need to send is a small data structure that lets the miner reconstruct the full block, from the transactions he already has. An invertible bloom lookup table…

Transactions not having to propagate across the network a second time in blocks is certainly nice, but that doesn't solve all the problems of large blocks. As you said, that proposal is focused on maintaining an incentive for miners to create large blocks without having to worry about orphan races.

All full nodes still need to process everyone else's transactions, so bandwidth requirements are still hefty, just not squared. Even if someone's home connection can theoretically maintain 45k tx/s, how many of those generous full node maintainers out there will be excited about the prospect of their Bitcoin node using their entire internet connection? Storage requirements will also still be fairly intensive, even if nodes prune everything but the UTXO set (that needs to be stored in RAM--although that can change--it's a half gig).

Not to mention that proposal can create problems where miners withhold transactions from other miners so they can build secret chains that other miners can't build on until they have see the withheld transactions.

All that aside, your comment still ignores the reality of the situation. The Bitcoin network has been bleeding nodes for ages, and has settled around 6500-7000, probably a little more[1]. What that says to me is that even if Gavin's 20MB block proposal works for him on paper and on his VPS, the reality is that we can barely maintain a healthy node landscape with the current stresses of the network. Upping it to 20MB will likely cause a "shedding" and we will come to the new normal, so on and so forth, until we increase the block size so much that we end up with only a handful of nodes.

This is all assuming the network continues grows to those needs, which I found doubtful.

[1]http://getaddr.bitnodes.io/

Re: Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited

#56
For his first point "You cannot be cheap and secured by proof-of-work at the same time".

The US dollar used to be part of a much more expensive "proof-of-work", the gold standard. In order to create dollars, someone had to buy expensive mining equipment and spend a ton of time and money physically digging gold out of the ground, melting it, and keeping it safe. Seemed to work out well for a pretty long time.

Re: Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited

#57

I think this essay is top heavy: the conclusions can't hold given the assumptions. Take the first argument: for transactions to remain cheap one of three things has to happen, then those three things are painted as almost impossible. But the second one; "At the same fee level, transaction count must increase 250 folds." Seems completely possible. If transactions remain relatively cheap then bitcoin can be very useful…

I think he means transactions per block, which is hard to increase 250x.

No, he means the combined (fee/tx * price * tx/block) metric must increase by 250x.

So if, for example, average fees increase by 2.5x and price increased by 10x, then transaction/block only needs to increase by 10x in order to raise this metric by 250x. Not only this is possible, but this is likely. This metric has increased by 1,000,000x in the last few years, why would it suddenly plateau right now?

Re: Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited

#58

For his first point "You cannot be cheap and secured by proof-of-work at the same time". The US dollar used to be part of a much more expensive "proof-of-work", the gold standard. In order to create dollars, someone had to buy expensive mining equipment and spend a ton of time and money physically digging gold out of the ground, melting it, and keeping it safe. Seemed to work out well for a pretty long time.

Being pegged to gold and being secured by gold aren't the same thing.

The gold that backed the dollar had already been dug up. It was already in the hands of the government. Whatever the costs were to get it, they were sunk costs based on the value of the gold, not the currency system layered on top of it. The dollar was secured via tricky-to-duplicate printing techniques and police powers.

Re: Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited

#59
post #24

"Per transaction cost is currently low because mining revenue comes from inflation." It's actually the reverse. Mining speculates on deflation not inflation.

I think the point is that mining is subsidized by "printing" new bitcoins, which currently make up most of the block reward. Speculation is in theory not a factor, since spending $ on buying a bitcoin == spending $ on mining a bitcoin, so the price would be the same, if a rational market existed.

You say this like it's not a thing... "if a rational market existed." Maybe we're experiencing a breakdown of understanding because your intent isn't clear, so forgive me if I've misinterpreted your sentiment.

Isn't the market mostly rational? Where is your evidence that it does not exist/that the price is not rational? To me it has the appearance that the price of bitcoin hovers around the cost of mining bitcoin, ever since the big rising bubble first popped. I am not an expert but I have been following for quite some time as mining hardware gets more efficient and the difficulty waggles mostly trending up over time.

There is no universal "electricity cost to mine a bitcoin" since mining hardware varies in efficiency, and it's true that any rational miner would stop mining if his hardware could no longer make a marginal profit on the cost of the electricity. You would get more bitcoin by just spending that part of your utility budget at an exchange. I have obsolete ASIC hardware from BFL that I only run because I have a source of free electricity and for the novelty / because it's cold. They made money for a time, and then the market corrected.

With the advances in hardware that are constantly coming from many different players in the mining hardware market, I would not be surprised to hear that many latest-gen ASIC miners are still hovering around "break-even" electricity cost to mine, and as the difficulty continues to rise, anyone waiting for delivery of their equipment goes on biting their nails, waiting to see if they will make a profit or if all their effort will have been wasted.

Re: Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited

#60
This whole thing rests on the fundamental assumption that the current level of mining must be constant. If mining is less profitable, there will be less miners. This is the most likely scenario and not some crazy price increase or fee price increase.

Miners can't profit? Miners drop out and leave more breathing room for the other miners.

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