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A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

fortune.com

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Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#51

Post by leif »

bdamm wrote: post #38
[deleted] wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Well, as an example, when I'm working in a mixed team of say 2 women and 5 men, and we're in a meeting discussing technical options, I may tend to give the women more eye contact than the men. This can go two ways for the women; it can be considered leering (I try very hard not to do that, but it is very difficult) and so that is an example of harassment. But in a way I am also giving away power to the women; power t…

You could try talking to them about this. Try "hey, I understand being in this industry can be difficult as a woman, I am not very familiar with the problem but I don't want to be part of it, and I'm concerned about how much eye contact I'm giving you during meetings. I don't want to make you uncomfortable with my eye contact or this question, but is it a problem for you?"

Most likely they'll tell you they have a lot of worse things to deal with than how much eye contact you're giving them, but it'll be a learning experience and at least you'll open up a dialogue.

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#52

Post by blkhp19 »

asadotzler wrote: post #43
blkhp19 wrote: post #22

First of all, calling a group of guys a sausage fest is reverse sexism. If I called a classroom full of girls a barbie play-date, or a tea party, or a "fashion" class - regardless of the real reason for their gathering, people would be outraged - and rightfully so. None of those things are true and it's disrespectful to say something like that. Second, the guy who said "well I should have applied for that" might have…

The thing is, bklhp19, we don't need your analasys to tell us whether or not there are sexism and gender issues in tech and tech education. It's a fact and we know it so all you're offering here is a dismissal of this person's concern. Is that how you like to show up in the world, challenging or dismissing people around you when they take the time to communicate their experience of known problem space?

Bad journalism deserves to be pointed out, does it not? I am not dismissing the issue, I am claiming that her points lack substantial evidence. Just because something is a touchy subject doesn't mean the writing is infallible.

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#53

Post by l33tbro »

knowtheory wrote: post #10
theVirginian wrote: post #3

Most of these incidents just sound like guys who were genuinely trying to be nice or funny, but because anything can be seen through the lens of sexism, this woman took the opportunity to consider herself oppressed.

Hopefully you can understand that intent isn't everything? Being considerate of others isn't just saying "pshht i didn't mean anything by it!" it's actually thinking about how other people might react in the circumstances they've been put in. You can call sexism a lens, but it might also help to understand the experiences others have lived (from their POV, not yours) to see why it's a lens that others are brought to…

Your lens theory is nice, but I found found living in a transgender commune (yep, that's another story) insufferable in terms of second guessing every my comment or impulse. Persecution complexes are just not sustainable in promoting harmonius cross-communities, and at some point the person subject to sexism and oppression has to be prepared to expect some of the heat. It's simply the world we've inherited, and we can't expect it to magically change.

On the positive, things are changing. I see this issue get talked about a lot on here now, and there's a greater dialogue in the culture about it. It will take some time ...

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#54

Post by Jimmy »

asadotzler wrote: post #43
blkhp19 wrote: post #22

First of all, calling a group of guys a sausage fest is reverse sexism. If I called a classroom full of girls a barbie play-date, or a tea party, or a "fashion" class - regardless of the real reason for their gathering, people would be outraged - and rightfully so. None of those things are true and it's disrespectful to say something like that. Second, the guy who said "well I should have applied for that" might have…

The thing is, bklhp19, we don't need your analasys to tell us whether or not there are sexism and gender issues in tech and tech education. It's a fact and we know it so all you're offering here is a dismissal of this person's concern. Is that how you like to show up in the world, challenging or dismissing people around you when they take the time to communicate their experience of known problem space?

Does the HN community not see how dangerous this line of thinking is?

"We don't need your analysis to know that the NSA isn't misusing the data they collect on us. It's a fact and we know it."

Is this really how we want arguments to proceed?

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#55

Post by knowtheory »

blkhp19 wrote: post #34
knowtheory wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully you can understand that intent isn't everything? Being considerate of others isn't just saying "pshht i didn't mean anything by it!" it's actually thinking about how other people might react in the circumstances they've been put in. You can call sexism a lens, but it might also help to understand the experiences others have lived (from their POV, not yours) to see why it's a lens that others are brought to…

But everyone is subject to that. Humans are incredibly imperfect social beings - and teenagers and young adults are particularly good at not thinking through what they say. It doesn't mean people are trying to be sexist.

Surely we can agree that discrimination is not only about intent.

And, again, if you make someone else feel bad is it the right thing to do to go "oh, well i didn't mean to make you feel bad, so you shouldn't feel that way."

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#56

Post by hackcasual »

kleer001 wrote: post #19
jneen wrote: post #6

I have heard most of these things, and it sucks. This is hella real.

Yup, it makes me a teeny bit more angry every time I read an article like this. Angry and disappointed.

I'm happy that she decided to share. It's easy to forget how real this issue can be. The shit show in the comments here when an article like this is new further demonstrates the fact that there's still more work to be done. I will say though I do like HN because it seems to pretty quickly approach reasonableness with the voting system.

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#57

Post by ahelwer »

blkhp19 wrote: post #49
ahelwer wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it wouldn't be a discussion about sexism on HN without someone popping up to invalidate the woman's experiences.

If you look at it objectively, there simply isn't enough evidence to say that her examples were purposeful sexism. As others have said, people should be mindful of how they word things. There are plenty of articles that do provide substantial evidence showing sexism. I just fail to see that caliber of evidence in this article. Her tone honestly gives off the vibe that she thinks everyone is against her.

I would caution you against falling into the intellectual trap of believing your interpretation to be objective, especially here. Why must sexism be purposeful? Is it not a more damning implication of the culture for non-purposeful sexism to exist?

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#59

Post by stmchn »

kleer001 wrote: post #13

Yup, sounds like standard fare. I would have been impressed if she'd documented and reported this shitty behaviour. Then again Confrontation is difficult, no matter the context.

I think the part where she pointed out that not every sexist thing is overtly sexist really resonated with me. Not everything is so blatant that you can report it. If I confronted people every time something subtly sexist happened to me, people would think I was an oversensitive bitch. But at the same time, those little things add up.

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#60

Post by cubetime »

I do sometimes wonder what's added by focusing on sexism in tech, in particular, and suggesting it's uniquely a problem with tech. I can believe it's worse here on average than some other comfortable professional jobs, but seriously, sexism is everywhere and if we want to reduce it, it makes more sense to me to focus on the problem itself in full generality rather than an environment it's found in.

Unless you want to invoke an explanation that involves some combination of classism and good old-fashioned picking on (relatively) low-status nerds because it's easier and feels more natural. Then there wouldn't be much left to wonder.

(Edit: NOT saying we shouldn't point out sexism in tech, but expressing skepticism at the broader cultural narrative around how software people are uniquely ignorant and sexist relative to other professions. Ask ten women who've worked somewhere besides tech for a few years for some stories of sexism, you'll hear plenty.)

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