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Testosterone is the drug of the future

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Re: Testosterone is the drug of the future

#51

Post by whizzrd »

WhitneyLand wrote: post #44
whizzrd wrote: post #31

Read the leaflets for this product: side effects may differ depending on the region of application ;) AU: http://www.besins-healthcare.com/pdf/testogel%20patient%20in... US: http://www.besins-healthcare.com/pdf/androgel_PI.pdf

This is utterly useless. Many safe drugs have long, scary side effect descriptions. Conversely, many drugs that have proved harmful over the long term have done so in ways that weren't described on a side effect disclosure.

You may find it useless until you experience serious side effects (>1% - Wondering if someone using this product can confirm these symptoms.

Re: Testosterone is the drug of the future

#52

Post by callum85 »

Simp wrote: post #18
freshfey wrote: post #10

As someone who went from 430 ng/dl to 1024 ng/dl naturally in about two years time (from age 23 to 25) the only thing I can say is don't jump to too many conclusions here. - Your testosterone should be naturally high if you're below 30 (and male) - If not, something is wrong and you need to fix it (start with blood work, check your diet, move) - If you testosterone is in the normal ranges (blood work recommends betwe…

"start meditating" Research has not shown that meditation beats a placebo Studies about meditation are usually of poor quality. Source: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/2013/03/08/r...

How could there be a placebo for meditation? A placebo has to replicate the experience of going through the 'real' treatment being trialled. How could you create the experience of meditation without the subject actually meditating? The claim being tested is simply that the experience of meditation is beneficial, so I don't know what form a placebo could take.

It would be OK to do a trial where one group is instructed to meditate and the other is not given any instructions, and you check back with each group in a couple of weeks and ask them how they feel. If there's a difference in the meditation group, that proves there is value in meditating. Placebo doesn't come into it, because no one is claiming there is any benefit to meditation that doesn't come from simply experiencing it.

For comparison, I once heard of a way of testing acupuncture against a placebo – someone invented needles that look and feel the same but don't actually penetrate the skin. So they could compare the reported benefits of 'fake acupuncture' with real acupuncture, and see if there's any health benefit to the physical intervention, or if it's all just theatre. And if it is all just theatre, that's OK – it doesn't negate the health benefits of acupuncture, it just helps us understand that it's all about the experience of having someone slowly and dramatically stick pins in you, which is interesting. It's not the same as saying that acupuncture doesn't work.

Re: Testosterone is the drug of the future

#53

Post by vidarh »

Simp wrote: post #18
freshfey wrote: post #10

As someone who went from 430 ng/dl to 1024 ng/dl naturally in about two years time (from age 23 to 25) the only thing I can say is don't jump to too many conclusions here. - Your testosterone should be naturally high if you're below 30 (and male) - If not, something is wrong and you need to fix it (start with blood work, check your diet, move) - If you testosterone is in the normal ranges (blood work recommends betwe…

"start meditating" Research has not shown that meditation beats a placebo Studies about meditation are usually of poor quality. Source: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/2013/03/08/r...

Your source does not support your claim that research has not shown that meditation beats a placebo.

Apart from pointing out that "meditation" is a wide ranging concept that includes a vast number of different, often contradictory, practices, and that a lot of the research is of poor quality (given the number of "research" papers coming out of TM affiliated sources alone - see blow -, that should not be a surprise), it relates a claim in a report from 2007 that amongst others claim "Firm conclusions on the effects of meditation practices in healthcare cannot be drawn based on the available evidence". Without looking at what was covered in the papers that report looked at, this is not enough to support your claim.

The closest the article comes to dealing with the issue of placebo explicitly, is in referring to another article focusing on TM. TM is a cult-like money-grabbing business promoting one very specific form of meditation, and hardly representative of all forms of meditation practices. They're also one of the groups doing a lot of work to assist in churning out pseudo-science research papers to support their business, and as such did a lot to damage the overall quality of meditation research.

Re: Testosterone is the drug of the future

#54

Post by corin_ »

WhitneyLand wrote: post #39
alecco wrote: post #24

This is quack science. I wouldn't exchange temporary muscular gains for getting bald and other nasty long term side effects.

What is quack about it? Lots of people are noting anecdotally that is has huge benefits. Are there strong studies disproving this? As to the negative effects, what is the largest/longest term/most reputable citation you have for us?

What's quack about it is testosterone users calling themselves "doctors" to sell testosterone to other people. I haven't looked into research on either side so couldn't tell you whether I think it's a good or stupid thing to do, other than that if I did consider it I certainly wouldn't be considering the anecdotes of these people useful data.

Re: Testosterone is the drug of the future

#55

Post by davak »

MD here. Just remember that women live longer than men. Although it'll never be proven that hormones are part of that provess, I think it's a good assumption.

Many males as they get older become more lovable and more pleasent to be around because of natural hormone declines.

There are a ton of health issues such as balding, coronary artery disease, prostate cancer, obstructive sleep apnea that are related to testosterone. Whether these clinics can find the correct cocktail to find a healthy balance isn't clear.

I'm neither pro nor con. I've seen people who have been positively and negatively impacted by steroid supplementation.

Re: Testosterone is the drug of the future

#56

Post by failed_ideas »

dood wrote: post #41
Simp wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"start meditating" Research has not shown that meditation beats a placebo Studies about meditation are usually of poor quality. Source: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/2013/03/08/r...

That meditation research has historically been inconclusive and of poor quality does not mean it doesn't do anything. Also, meditation research has come a long way since the studies cited in your source. Something I dug up quickly: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/americanbuddhist/2014/01/the-ef...

Follow all the articles listed back to the journal being referenced.

Re: Testosterone is the drug of the future

#57

Post by return0 »

stinos wrote: post #47
return0 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it doesn't help more than a placebo, then it doesn't help at all.

Wordplay? If it helps just as much (which technically is also 'not more'), it could still help since a placebo might help. Hell, even if it would help 'less' than a placebo it might still be helping since I didn't quantify exactly how much :P

By that logic meditation also harms T levels. Not more than a placebo, but still harms them. Zero can be a positive or negative number.

Re: Testosterone is the drug of the future

#58

Post by return0 »

callum85 wrote: post #52
Simp wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"start meditating" Research has not shown that meditation beats a placebo Studies about meditation are usually of poor quality. Source: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/2013/03/08/r...

How could there be a placebo for meditation? A placebo has to replicate the experience of going through the 'real' treatment being trialled. How could you create the experience of meditation without the subject actually meditating? The claim being tested is simply that the experience of meditation is beneficial, so I don't know what form a placebo could take. It would be OK to do a trial where one group is instructed…

i think you 're supposed to compare the claimed effects on people who meditate vs people who don't (control group)

Re: Testosterone is the drug of the future

#59

Post by vidarh »

return0 wrote: post #42
stinos wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Research has not shown that meditation beats a placebo Isn't that sort of irrelevant here? I think the OP's point is that it helps, not that it helps better than something else (wahtever that may be, even a placebo)?

If it doesn't help more than a placebo, then it doesn't help at all.

A placebo often helps substantially. That is why we tend to test with a placebo rather than nothing at all, in order to measure the effect of what we want to test rather than the ability of our mind to influence our body.

And the effect is not merely psychological. Often placebo produces measurable responses.

Re: Testosterone is the drug of the future

#60

Post by return0 »

paganel wrote: post #29
toolz wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>- I didn't get huge muscles or less body fat with more testosterone (huge myth that I thought would change for me) The many studies done on this subject show that testosterone makes a huge impact on muscle growth. Take this 10 week study for instance, http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199607043350101 . The placebo group working out didn't experience nearly as much muscle gain as those taking testosterone did…

> The many studies done on this subject show that testosterone makes a huge impact on muscle growth Genuine question: Why this emphasis on increasing "muscle growth"? What benefits does it bring us (men)?

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