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The Human Toll of Flashbangs

propublica.org

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Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#51

Post by philwelch »

beloch wrote: post #16

There seems to be some room for innovation here. The police are throwing these things blind. Evidence? Well, I refuse to believe anyone, no matter how debased, would intentionally throw a flashbang into a baby's crib. What's needed is a flashbang that either won't go off if in close proximity to a living being (e.g. perhaps add an IR sensor) or a flashbang that is triggered remotely, so it can be thrown, spotted, and…

> Well, I refuse to believe anyone, no matter how debased, would intentionally throw a flashbang into a baby's crib.

Read some stories of the Holocaust, then. They didn't have flashbangs, but there were cases of babies being killed by being repeatedly swung into brick walls.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#52

Post by anigbrowl »

rdtsc wrote: post #21
beloch wrote: post #16

There seems to be some room for innovation here. The police are throwing these things blind. Evidence? Well, I refuse to believe anyone, no matter how debased, would intentionally throw a flashbang into a baby's crib. What's needed is a flashbang that either won't go off if in close proximity to a living being (e.g. perhaps add an IR sensor) or a flashbang that is triggered remotely, so it can be thrown, spotted, and…

> Well, I refuse to believe anyone, no matter how debased, would intentionally throw a flashbang into a baby's crib I can. In the extended circle of acquintances, two of the cops are the worst abusers of their families, children & wives, the are the most racists and full of hatred. One would enjoy showing others how he would spin his son by his hand while simultaneously kicking him in the back with his foot (granted…

Sadly, statistics back you up in this case. US police appear to have a much higher propensity to engage in domestic violence than the general population: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-o...

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#53

Post by Retra »

girvo wrote: post #24

> “If she hadn’t been selling illegal items out of the home, no warrant would have been served,” he said. “What you call extreme, we call safe.” Disgusting. The militarisation of police is a blight on our societies progress. And now where I live is succumbing to it too, albeit far more slowly than what those in the US have to deal with. The fact that SWAT teams are using flash bangs and automatic weaponry to raid a w…

That's either a lie, or just poor record-keeping. I would find the poor record-keeping entirely believable, but besides the point: even if they _had_ been trained to use flashbangs, then they we not trained properly or the shouldn't have been used at all.

Just because something is standard procedure doesn't make it the correct procedure.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#54

Post by anigbrowl »

kyrra wrote: post #33
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's most amazing is how smug and unapologetic the involved LEOs are when they've been interviewed on camera about this incident. One can only hope that the video is accepted as evidence in the civil case and will add a significant multiplier to the damages awarded.

I'm guessing their lawyers have told them not to apologize (show apathy), as it may actually be worse for them in the civil suit.

FYI you wrote apathy when you likely meant empathy.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#55

Post by philwelch »

hockley wrote: post #43
vaadu wrote: post #29

There will NEVER be accountability as long as the conflict of interest remains where police actions are investigated by a prosecutor that relies on these same police for him to do a successful job.

This fact was so evident last year. I don't understand why cop cases don't have special prosecutors or fall under federal jurisdiction.

Because the cops have all the guns and a good union.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#56

Post by yellowapple »

There seems to be a some demand for safer flashbangs (perhaps something with really bright LEDs and really loud speakers). This[0] seems to at least address the brightness aspect of it.

I mean, if the point of flashbang use by LEOs is supposedly to disorient/confuse/distract a suspect during arrest, this seems to be better-suited to that role. And better yet, if they're electronic, they should be (at least hypothetically) entirely reusable, saving a LEA a lot of money in the long run.

[0]: http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2012/03/13/delta-light-ball-flas...

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#57

Post by username223 »

click170 wrote: post #34
username223 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When your job ads say "not much pay, but you get to carry a big gun and scare people with it," this is what you get. I wish cops and primary/secondary teachers were paid enough that the people reading this post would consider those jobs, because they kind of matter.

Seems like a chicken and egg problem. They barely deserve the salary they get now with all the incidents going on, but they won't get more intelligent people applying until the wages are increased. Probably best to start with the teachers so theres a larger pool if educated people to hire from.

According to BLS, coders make something like $93k/yr [1], while policemen make about $57k [2], and primary school teachers make $53k [3]. How much of a pay cut would you take to accept one of those jobs? How much more in taxes would you pay to hire/train better people to do those jobs?

[1] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/S...

[2] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Protective-Service/Police-and-detecti...

[3] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Education-Training-and-Library/Kinder...

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#58

Post by tlrobinson »

6t6t6 wrote: post #15

I don't live in the US, so I am maybe missing something but, if the police wants to arrest someone, wouldn't be easier to wait until this person leaves the house, grab him on the street and tell him: "Hi mate, we are the police and now you are under arrest". I don't see the need of assaulting a home.

Yeah, but that's less fun and would require patience.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#59

Post by cryptnotic »

mbrubeck wrote: post #18
darklajid wrote: post #9

I'm not sure if this belongs on this site. This is .. utterly political. Reading that article leads me astray and I have to question the sanity of the persons involved, both on the acting side (police) and the justification side (spokesman, random "Yeah, criminals are dangerous and all" crap). This is the prime example of a cultural clash, of an article that is relevant for the US of A only (I hope there's a debate o…

The US has a tendency to export its bad ideas along with its good ones, so readers elsewhere might still have reason to be concerned about what happens there. These weapons are already used by some police in other places, like in Canada where a protesting student was seriously injured [1]. French police used flash bangs in the recent hostage situation in a grocery store [2]. [1]: http://rabble.ca/news/2012/03/police-…

Using them in a raid against a terrorist who had taken hostages is completely reasonable.

Throwing them into a crowd of people is not.

Like any dangerous tool, if you use it carelessly bad things will happen.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#60

Post by wl »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #25
jMyles wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and what they call "well-intentioned" I call "doing a job despite its moral indefensibility." (and to be clear: I'm talking specifically about pre-dawn violent raids as a measure to ostensibly enforce drug laws, not policing in general)

What's most amazing is how smug and unapologetic the involved LEOs are when they've been interviewed on camera about this incident. One can only hope that the video is accepted as evidence in the civil case and will add a significant multiplier to the damages awarded.

The officers involved most likely were following both their training and their department's policy here. That something terrible happened as a result doesn't necessarily mean they did something wrong from a legal and professional standpoint. Police work is full of situations that are ugly, even when well-thought out policy is followed to the T.

Of course, the wisdom of ever using flash bangs in policing outside of extraordinary circumstances is suspect.

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